Episode 57 - The Science of Safe Charting: Fertility Awareness Education with Nat Daudet

🐚Topics covered

• The difference between in-depth fertility charting and basic cycle tracking
• Why the rhythm method is unreliable and how it differs from evidence-based charting
• The importance of basal body temperature as a progesterone sign in confirming ovulation
• Why cervical mucus is equally important as temperature and serves as an "insurance policy"
• The limitations of fertility apps like Natural Cycles that only use temperature data
• How fertility awareness methods work for people with irregular cycles
• Charting during postpartum and post-birth control transitions
• Building confidence in fertility awareness methods over time
• Dealing with skepticism from family, friends, and healthcare providers
• The flexibility to change contraceptive methods if fertility awareness isn't the right fit

About Nat Daudet 

Nat Daudet is a double-certified fertility awareness educator, menstrual cycle coach and the founder of Fertility Awareness Project and Fertility Knowledge Collective. Hundreds of people worldwide have learned to chart their menstrual cycle for birth control with her online course, Cycle Love. Nat brings a science-backed, practical approach to fertility awareness education, helping people understand their fertile windows and use this knowledge to avoid pregnancy effectively and confidently.

Where to find Nat

Website: https://fertilityawarenessproject.ca/

Instagram: @fertilityawarenessproject 

Free resource: FAM Fundamentals video course (available on website)

About the Host

I’m Iris Josephina—functional hormone specialist, orthomolecular hormone coach, and entrepreneur. Through Cycle Seeds and The Inner Rhythms Podcast, I support people in reconnecting with their cyclical nature, deepening body literacy, and reclaiming hormonal harmony from a place of sovereignty and embodied knowledge. Most people know me from Instagram, where I share stories, tools, and inspiration on cyclical living, menstrual cycles, fertility, hormones and more. 

Let’s stay connected:

📸 Instagram: @cycleseeds

📧 Join my newsletter: https://www.cycleseeds.com/

💻 Visit the Cycle Seeds website: https://www.cycleseeds.com/

📝 Check out the blog: https://www.cycleseeds.com/blog

🎓 Holistic Hormone & Cycle Coaching Certification Training: https://www.cycleseeds.com/hhcc-training-2025-selfstudy-vip

📚Join my courses: https://www.cycleseeds.com/courses-masterclasses

📊 Chart Your Cycle Masterclass: https://cycleseeds.plugandpay.nl/checkout/chart-your-cycle-97

Transcript

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[00:00:00] You are listening to the podcast of Iris Josephina. If you are passionate about exploring the menstrual cycle, cyclical living, body wisdom, personal growth, spirituality, and running a business in alignment with your natural cycles, you're in the right place. I'm Iris. I'm an entrepreneur, functional hormone specialist, trainer and coach, and I am on a mission.

[00:00:29] To share insights, fun facts, and inspiration I discover along the way as I run my business and walk my own path on earth. Here you'll hear my personal stories, guest interviews, and vulnerable shares from clients and students. Most people know me from Instagram where you can find me under at cycle seeds, or they have been a coaching client or student in one of my courses.

[00:00:52] I'm so [00:00:00] Iris Josephina: You are listening to the podcast of Iris Josephina. If you are passionate about exploring the menstrual cycle, cyclical living, body wisdom, personal growth, spirituality, and running a business in alignment with your natural cycles, you're in the right place. I'm Iris. I'm an entrepreneur, functional hormone specialist, trainer and coach, and I am on a mission.

[00:00:29] Iris Josephina: To share insights, fun facts, and inspiration I discover along the way as I run my business and walk my own path on earth. Here you'll hear my personal stories, guest interviews, and vulnerable shares from clients and students. Most people know me from Instagram where you can find me under at cycle seeds, or they have been a coaching client or student in one of my courses.

[00:00:52] Iris Josephina: I'm so grateful you're here. Let's dive into today's episode. 

[00:00:57] Iris Josephina: Hey friends. Welcome to this new episode of the Inner Rhythms Podcast. I'm sitting here with Nat. I'm really excited to be here with you. Welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to kick off your new season. So you are all into fertility awareness, fertility awareness practices, and charting.

[00:01:22] Iris Josephina: And people who are listening to this podcast are quite aware about tracking and charting, but to just get things really clear, shall we start with what exactly. Is charting and how are you working with it? Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of different ways when you think about tracking your cycles or tracking your periods, and there's a lot of different ways that you can do that.

[00:01:48] Nat Daudet: A lot of different levels of depth. The way that I approach fertility charting is an in-depth science backed approach to understanding your fertile window, and specifically using that information to avoid pregnancy. And it's really more than just charting your period dates. It's more than rhythm method thinking.

[00:02:13] Nat Daudet: It's charting ovulation in real time with your fertility signs and your fertility biomarkers. So yeah, I think not everybody needs to go this in depth into into charting, but having this level of information about your body and using that for birth control is something that I'm really passionate about.

[00:02:35] Iris Josephina: Yeah, me too. I was recently looking at my own charts and I've been charting since I was 22. I'm 34 now, so I have like a whole bunch, whole bunch of charts and it gives so much information. And you mentioned earlier the rhythm method, and I think that's a method that a lot of people like unconsciously, like do.

[00:02:57] Iris Josephina: Can you just go into how that method is significantly different and. Absolutely not to be trusted compared to charting. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, the rhythm method is, is really thinking that we all ovulate on day 14 and all have 28 day cycles and that you can use that to, you know, track your ovulation or know when near fertile, which.

[00:03:25] Nat Daudet: It's problematic because we don't all ovulate on day 14. We don't all have 28 day cycles. And even if you do have a regular cycle, there's no guarantee that it's going to be regular next cycle. So it's a very ineffective way to know when you're ovulating. It's based on a guess not based on the actual signs that are happening in your cycle every day.

[00:03:44] Nat Daudet: And. The more people that I talk to, the more maybe I've looked at, I think over like 1000 fertility charts at this point in my, in my teaching and I have, I can say that very few of them are 28 Ds, and most of us have some variation in our cycles, which is totally normal. So when we rely on rhythm method thinking, it's.

[00:04:06] Nat Daudet: It's one easy way to accidentally get pregnant because it's not accurately reflecting your real time ovulation or your real time cycle. Yeah. I love that. I sometimes say to my clients that rhythm method charts are fantasy charts because we kind of like make them up. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Because with the rhythm method, we can't like trust what we see because we base it on what we have seen before.

[00:04:34] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And when we chart, obviously we have our basal body temperature that we chart. Can you share a little bit about that and how that is important? I. Yeah, so basal body temperature is a progesterone sign, so once ovulation occurs, progesterone will increase and cause a change in our baseline temperature upon waking, so our basal body temperature.

[00:05:04] Nat Daudet: And so when we measure that every day, we can track a slight rise in our basal body temperature after ovulation. And know that ovulation in the past, it's already happened because that's reflecting an increase in progesterone. Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. And then a lot of people these days, I feel are having a hyper focus on charting through.

[00:05:31] Iris Josephina: Basal body temperature because there's so many devices out there that really push for charting with basal body temperature, which in essence is, I think it's like a, a good evolution that people are made aware of it, but it's so incomplete. And you and I know that cervical mucus is equally important when it comes to charting and.

[00:05:55] Iris Josephina: I wanted to ask you why. Why is that? Why is cervical mucus as important as charting your temperature, and what is the wisdom that we can get out of that, especially when it comes to preventing pregnancy, which is what you're teaching. Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. 'cause I just made a post about that this morning.

[00:06:14] Nat Daudet: I'm testing out natural cycles right now. Oh, and I have, I have tested it in the past. I'm doing another experiment this cycle, and I have a lot of people who are really upset with me who say like. Who will really defend natural cycles and say that natural cycles gives 'em really conservative green days.

[00:06:35] Nat Daudet: And that's just not been my experience doing my own experience experiment or talking to other people. And I think it's a good example of how we can't rely only on basal body temperature. So while basal body temperature does rise in relation to ovulation, when you look at the window of time that ov or that basal body temperature reflects.

[00:06:56] Nat Daudet: Ovulation, it's quite a wide window and you can even have a temperature shift occur before you ovulate. So it's like a wide window of time. And when we only rely on basal body temperature with the case of like natural cycles, you can get a green day a day that's good to go, to go and protect it. That's on a peak cervical mucus day.

[00:07:19] Nat Daudet: And so. We ignore cervical mucus. You're potentially having really risky sex on what looks like a safe day, but you're not relying on cervical mucus, which is like your insurance policy to basal body temperature. So using cervical mucus and basal body temperature when we're talking about symptom thermal fertility, awareness based methods.

[00:07:41] Nat Daudet: Is a way to really be certain that you're out of your fertile window in looking, not just at one fertility sign, but two. So you're really making sure that both of those things agree, and you're making sure that both of those things are saying the ovulation in the past and you're looking at whichever comes last.

[00:07:59] Nat Daudet: So I, I think that a lot of people think that natural cycles is giving them conservative green days because they're only looking at temperature. When I look at. What natural Cycles is giving me in terms of my cervical mucus, I've been given green days on days where I have peak type cervical mucus, which is a really Oh wow.

[00:08:18] Nat Daudet: Fertile day in the cycle, but it doesn't take cervical mucus into account. So tracking those two things is really important for. Closing the fertile window for knowing that ovulation in the past. And it also helps us open the fertile window, helps us know when ovulation is approaching as well. And apps like natural cycles.

[00:08:39] Nat Daudet: Don't look at cervical mucus for either of those things. I have a really love-hate relationship with fem tech. I like testing out a lot of fem tech, but I always say like, learn the rules before you break them. Like, learn how to interpret your chart. Before you go and add in algorithms or apps that are doing interpretations, because oftentimes they're wrong.

[00:09:01] Nat Daudet: And oftentimes if we don't know how it's coming up with an answer, it doesn't actually add to the safety of the method that you're using. Even though it feels like it is, it feels like you're adding in this level of security. It's usually not. Giving you very safe, conservative advice if you're avoiding pregnancy.

[00:09:23] Nat Daudet: So I think the best thing to do for somebody who wants to use fertility awareness to avoid pregnancy, and again, this isn't for everybody, but it's to learn. How to chart your cycle with the signs and how to interpret them yourself, and then you can go and add in all the fun gadgets and EmTech and all of the things because yeah, you can really get yourself into a risky situation if you are relying only on those apps or only on temperature.

[00:09:52] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I completely agree with you and I love your, I love how you explained that cervical mucus is like the insurance policy. Because it's, it's really true and it gives so much more extra information. And I have actually also seen clients who were just like, oh look, I've done my temperature and I've confirmed my ovulation.

[00:10:13] Iris Josephina: And I'm like, but your mucus. And then they had unprotected sex. And then I had to explain like, oh, there is actually actually a chance that you can be pregnant right now. Yeah. Yeah. Which is never something you want to tell people. No. Well, if they're trying to get pregnant, it's a different story. But if people are really trying to avoid pregnancy, it's like this, these stakes are high.

[00:10:34] Nat Daudet: Yes. Yeah, they are. And you know, it's always so interesting to me that these apps. Don't bill in an extra like tech thing where they, for example, count a certain amount of days after basal body temperature has risen and has stayed high for a couple of days to add in that extra security. Or natural cycles does use, like, it's not, you don't get your green day after your first higher temperature.

[00:11:06] Nat Daudet: It uses like kind of athermal rules. Mm. So it does give you a window there, but within that window you still could be having peak, tick, cervical mucus. Yeah. And if you're layering that on top of temperature, then you could be waiting a few extra days even after temperature temperatures are saying that you're safe.

[00:11:23] Nat Daudet: Yeah. So, and, and also sometimes it doesn't mark things correctly. Like I've had really weird. Weird, like you'd think that technology would be able to get to a point where it accurately charts the temperature shifts and the cover lines, but still it's not always foolproof and it's not always accurate.

[00:11:41] Nat Daudet: And I think the only way to know that it's actually like 100% accurate is if you do it yourself. Because if you're outsourcing, you just have no idea if and how it's. It's doing what it's doing, but if you do it yourself, you can be certain that you know like exactly what's going on. Yeah. I love that approach because a lot of people have a very passive attitude towards birth control in general.

[00:12:07] Iris Josephina: I feel. And when usually when people want to, for example, stop hormonal birth control, it is because they want to have like more agency, but then they just like move that agency into the hands of another. Thing or another tool, instead of really taking that agency and that sovereignty into their own hands.

[00:12:28] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And that's often a conversation that I need to have with clients, and I'm sure that you probably also have those kinds of conversations all the time. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So. With all of this charting and when we start learning this method, a lot of people have this misconception that, oh, at first my cycles need to be super regular before I can start using this method, because otherwise it's completely unsafe and it doesn't work.

[00:13:03] Iris Josephina: Obviously, you and I know that that is not true. So I wanted to ask you, how does it work when people have irregular. Cycles and they're not finding this like steady regularity in their menstrual cycles. Like many people struggle with this. It's for many people a reason to not start charting. And I wonder what your take is on that and how you go about that in your practice and with your clients and what you have to say about that.

[00:13:33] Nat Daudet: Yeah, I think part of it comes from that rhythm method thinking that if, if we think about how the rhythm method thinking works, it's that things have to be predictable in order for it to be effective. But with in-depth fertility charting, you're tracking ovulation in real time, so it really doesn't apply.

[00:13:48] Nat Daudet: I. If you're ovulating, no matter when that is in your cycle, you should be able to track it if you're charting your science properly and charting in a consistent way. So I have an 80 day cycle from October to. January and when I eventually ovulated, it was very clear. It was not unclear. I was able to apply all of the rules that I would in a regular cycle.

[00:14:14] Nat Daudet: It's just that it took longer for me to ovulate. So it's not true that you can't chart. If you have irregular cycles, you absolutely can't. And I believe that. The peace of mind that it gives you in a longer cycle is so worth it because you're not wondering like, am I pregnant? Why isn't my period coming?

[00:14:33] Nat Daudet: Why is it late? Instead, you're like, well, I'm pre ovulatory and I'm just waiting to ovulate. So that's really what you're grounding yourself into is where are you relative to ovulation. The tricky piece of it is when it comes to like, when are you available to go unprotected? So. With most fertility awareness based methods, specifically symptom athermal methods, there'll be a calculation to open the fertile window, which is based on a lot of different factors.

[00:14:59] Nat Daudet: And once that calculation tells you that your fertile window is open, then if ovulation is delayed, it might be a long time until you have available days to go unprotected again. So that's one downside of it is that you may just have a long stretch where going unprotected is not an option. You might need to.

[00:15:18] Nat Daudet: Have other types of sex or rely on barrier methods for symptom thermal methods that use calculations. That's the reality is that. You just have to wait a long time until you eventually do ovulate. So I, I feel like knowing, knowing that, and knowing the upside of like having the insight into where you are in your cycle is, is worth it.

[00:15:40] Nat Daudet: And everyone has their own worth it calculation and like what's important to them and how important going unprotected is to them. But I feel like we do need to like talk about that. Like, yes, it works for irregular cycles. However, there may be a time where an ovulation is delayed, where going unprotected is not an option.

[00:15:58] Nat Daudet: Mm-hmm. So what, what I'm hearing is that when you have an irregular cycle and you haven't seen ovulation the entire time before that happens, you still have the option to potentially move towards ovulation. So you can't go unprotected. Yeah, right. Basically once, yeah, basically once you enter your fertile window, so from cycle day one up until when your fertile window opens, those days are available, and then after that point.

[00:16:30] Nat Daudet: You've entered your ferdo based on a calculation and so you're waiting to see if you're gonna ovulate. 'cause it could happen at any time. And so yeah, essentially you're just, you're tracking to see if those changes in your hormones and changes in your cervical mucus are ending in ovulation. If you're in a long cycle, you'll have multiple ovulation attempts, so you may have changes in your cervical mucus.

[00:16:53] Nat Daudet: That don't end in ovulation, you're not able to confirm ovulation, and that may happen multiple times if you're in a cycle that's 60, 70, 80 days. And so you're treating that as if it could end in ovulation if you're avoiding pregnancy. Yeah. And that's how you stay safe and avoid pregnancy in longer cycles.

[00:17:13] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And I'm assuming it works a similar way when you are postpartum because then you're not Yes. It's one, yeah. It's one long pre ovulatory phase, and it can be, it could be a few weeks, it could be a whole year before your cycle comes back and yeah, it's, it's the same idea and, and it's the same when you come up birth control too.

[00:17:35] Nat Daudet: Sometimes people will have, mm-hmm. Delayed pre ovulatory or like delayed ovulation and long pre ovulatory phases. Not always, but sometimes. So there's a couple circumstances like PCOS, postpartum post birth control, where this happens more frequently. Yeah. Have you ever seen someone chart their cycle from the moment they've given birth and then all the way up until they started ovulating again?

[00:18:01] Nat Daudet: Yes, I have. I have seen. People charting from birth. For some people it's their fertility comes back very quickly, and for others it's a long, long time. Yeah, it just depends. Yeah. It is something that I am really excited about for when I ever get pregnant. My wish is to keep on charting all throughout pregnancy to have like a nine month chart and then see, oh yeah.

[00:18:28] Nat Daudet: I, I definitely would do the same thing. The more data the better. Yeah. And just, you know, just out of curiosity, like what does temperature do throughout pregnancy? Does it really stay that high, like in the beginning for implantation, or does it lower a bit or what's happening? Do you see more like thyroid like charts?

[00:18:48] Iris Josephina: Because the thyroid changes so much throughout pregnancy and postpartum, so I'm just very curious to. To collect that data and then also see like what happens postpartum and when will I be able to confirm ovulation again and how, how will that show up? Because I've heard that for some people, their cervical mucus patterns change after pregnancy.

[00:19:12] Iris Josephina: I don't know whether you know something about that. Yeah, I don't know too, too much about it. I think part of it is. You're in a delayed pre ovulatory time, so your mucus is unchanging for a long time until you have those little bumps of estrogen depending on if you're breastfeeding, like all those different factors.

[00:19:33] Nat Daudet: And then it can take like six months for your hormones to finally find their footing again after postpartum, like six cycles, sorry, six cycles. Once you start ovulating again. Yeah. So yeah, definitely cervical mucus can change depending on all of those different factors. And when you have a big hormonal change like pregnancy, it can absolutely influence your, your cycle and cervical mucus.

[00:20:00] Iris Josephina: Yeah. Yeah. So I feel that there is still like a lot of misconception around. You know what charting is and how scary it is to begin. And I wondered whether you can just speak to like maybe some words of encouragement for people who are like on the verge of wanting to try this, but are really afraid to get pregnant in the journey.

[00:20:27] Iris Josephina: Like, could you speak a little bit to that and maybe, you know, help people feel assured that this is really something that they can do. With the right guidance. Oh man. Yeah. I feel like this is such a good one. Where do I even start? I think everyone who starts with fertility awareness goes through a journey of self knowledge and confidence, and in those first three to six cycles, it's so common to feel nervous and to feel unsure, and to question yourself because it is a new skill and because we're not taught.

[00:21:06] Nat Daudet: We're not taught any of this, and we're also told that you can get pregnant all the time, every single day of your cycle. And so relearning and rewinding your brain and learning a new skill of charting can feel, it can feel like a lot, and I think. A lot of people are struggling because they're going alone and they're, they're trying to DIY and figuring it out themselves, and I think that can make things more complicated, especially if, if you're coming off birth control and your cycles don't look like the textbook.

[00:21:40] Nat Daudet: It's so common to feel overwhelmed. But truly over time it does get easier because you have more data and you're able to identify your patterns a lot easier and you're, you're, you're starting out with tons of information and tons of data and, and eventually you streamline it to, to chart in a way that makes sense to you and that fits your body's patterns.

[00:22:02] Nat Daudet: I was just on a call this morning with a client of mine who is in her 32nd fertility chart, so we started working together three years ago. And her I'd asked her, you know, it looks like you've really got a good handle on charting. And I said, does it feel that way? Like that's how it looks. And she said, yeah, I feel so much more confident than I did a year ago or two years ago.

[00:22:29] Nat Daudet: Things feel second nature now. They feel intuitive and I feel really confident with my chart. And the more periods I get, the more I trust that. I know what I'm doing, right? Like the more cycles go by where I don't get pregnant, I, I trust myself. And it was really cool to see someone who has really stuck with it for years and has the, the charts and confidence to show for it.

[00:22:56] Nat Daudet: Um, because yeah, it can be so overwhelming that you don't even start. It can be so overwhelming that you dip your toe in and. You don't continue. But if, if it's something that you really wanna do and you're, you're committed, then it's something that can work for you and you can be successful in it and you can avoid pregnancy.

[00:23:15] Nat Daudet: And I just celebrated my nine year fam anniversary and I haven't had any pregnancy scares in that time. And I feel so. Good about my chart every cycle, even in longer cycles. It's just something that comes so easily to me now that takes barely any thought and. You have to stick with those first three or six cycles to get over that hump and like really feel confident.

[00:23:43] Nat Daudet: And if it feels overwhelming and, and you really wanna do it, seek support. Like reach out to a fam educator, someone who can guide you through it. Because sometimes that makes all the differences. Having just like someone who you can ask your questions to and, and really. Make you feel more confident in yourself.

[00:24:05] Nat Daudet: That can sometimes make all the difference. Yeah, for sure. I remember with my journey, I really wanted someone to come and sit next to me and just explain it so that I didn't have to like get it out of a book and then hope I understood it and just have like this feedback moment like, oh, so this is, and, and that I could just ask a question and go like, so, oh, okay, so this is what you mean and this is how it works.

[00:24:29] Iris Josephina: And then have that confirmation. Yeah. And then have someone look at the charts and then, you know, sometimes we just need a little pat on the, on the back. Like, you're doing really well. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes you just need that little bit of encouragement. Yeah. And that can make a huge, a huge difference if you're reading the, the books that it's making sense to you and, and your charts are clear, all the power to you.

[00:24:56] Nat Daudet: But if not, then. The problem is usually that you don't have someone to go to who can answer your questions or explain it to you in a way that makes sense, because who's reading, taking charge of your fertility cover to cover like I have. Okay. There you go. Yeah. It's not an easy, it's not an easy way to learn for a lot of people.

[00:25:16] Nat Daudet: I know. For me, that's not how I learn. So yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of finding a way that makes sense to you in how you learn. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I'm just like, there's just this other question that pops into my brain, something that I also see very often, and I'm sure that you do too. Like how do you usually recommend people to, I.

[00:25:41] Iris Josephina: Deal with their environment when their environment is really skeptical or really unru like not trusting when the person really wants to start charting, whether it's family or a partner or friends. I'm just curious how, how you usually go about that and, and whether are, you have some encouraging words for people who experience that.

[00:26:04] Nat Daudet: Yeah, it's so common, isn't it, for someone to feel criticized by their doctor or family or friends because there are so many misconceptions I. And that can make it really hard to make the leap to, to do it, especially if you're someone who seeks validation in your decisions from other people, myself included.

[00:26:24] Nat Daudet: Um, so I think I've noticed that the more you learn and educate yourself, and there's so many resources available now to do that, the more confident you feel in your own decision making, and there are gonna be people who disagree. That's the reality. Like a lot of people still think that. Fertility awareness, isn ineffective.

[00:26:48] Nat Daudet: A lot of people don't know what it is. And the the reality is people are going to doubt you. And so getting as much information as you can so that you can make your own decision is the best thing that you can do. And if you decide to come off birth control and you try fertility awareness, and if not for you, you can always go back on birth control.

[00:27:10] Nat Daudet: It's not, it's not a life. Thing. You can always change your mind, but I think if it's something that you are really considering and it's something that's really nagging at you, follow that thread. And the, the more that you use fertility awareness, the more you become confident in it. The more sure of yourself you feel, even if people around you don't believe it works or don't know what it is.

[00:27:36] Nat Daudet: And the other thing too is like. You have so many resources and online communities that you can be a part of. If, if the people around you don't feel like good supports, there are so many ways that you can connect with people online, through Instagram or Facebook or, or online courses around fam that can be that community for you and make you feel like you're not crazy for, for using Sam.

[00:28:03] Iris Josephina: Yeah. I love that you also said that it's not like a lifetime thing. Like once you make the decision and it's not for you, you can always go back to another form of birth control. I love that you said that because I feel it. You know, in the fertility awareness space, there is like this final feeling like, oh, once you choose that you can never like.

[00:28:26] Iris Josephina: Step away from it ever again. And I, I love that you just named that because I feel that that is also something that a lot of people fear. Like, oh, once I go like the natural way. Mm-hmm. I can never go back because now I made this decision and I need to like show that I'll stick to it. I've had clients like that and it's really sad because if a method really doesn't work for you, you're allowed to shift.

[00:28:49] Iris Josephina: Like you're allowed to change. You're allowed to change your mind. Yeah. Yeah. And it just makes it so scary. So much scarier when you're like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, take my IUD out and use spam and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, if it doesn't work, you can always. Go back on birth control, like that's not really the end of the world.

[00:29:08] Nat Daudet: And so yeah, it just feels like this huge decision. And I remember feeling like that too, and I was like trying to figure out what to use for birth control. It is like, it's either this or it's that, and it's like, no. Sometimes we like, we can change our minds or we can change our fertility intentions and like what we're comfortable with.

[00:29:27] Nat Daudet: Like I used to be so scared of getting pregnant and now. It's not, it doesn't feel so intense. And so like our minds can change and how we feel about our cycles can change and, and yeah, it doesn't need to be such a scary, like, distinct decision. You can always, you can always change your mind. Yeah, that's very true.

[00:29:50] Iris Josephina: And usually when we think like that, the decision becomes. A lot easier. Yes. And when you have your options and when it doesn't work, there's like 5 million other things that you can do. Totally. So chill. Yeah. I feel like that's the wisdom of being in our thirties. Like yeah, lots can happen and things can change and it will.

[00:30:12] Nat Daudet: Okay. Yeah. I also had a few clients who really wanted to continue charting. After they'd given birth. Mm-hmm. But it was just like they were just awake all the time and they didn't feel confident to like keep charting, even with a fertility device like temp drop. They just didn't feel comfortable. And then they went on like the pill that you can take when you breastfeed.

[00:30:37] Iris Josephina: And they felt amazing on that. And I feel. You know, it's so important that we talk about that and that we name that because people often think like, oh, and I stick to one thing, I need to stick to it forever. Which is not true. Yes. Yeah. It's all or nothing thinking, isn't it? And it's really not the end of the world to be on birth control.

[00:30:57] Nat Daudet: It's like so fear mon and so easily on social media, it's just kind of like demonized. And I'm sure there, like there's all. Sure there are side effects, but it's, it's really not the end of the world. And there are lots of things in life where we have to weigh the pros and cons and only you can make that decision and come to it freely and not feeling like you're in a panic.

[00:31:23] Nat Daudet: And yeah, allow yourself to, to change your mind too. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that that is good wisdom. To end with. Are there any other things that you would like people to know, charting or any I don't think so. I think if people are curious of like what does in-depth fertility charting mean? I have a free video course called FAM Fundamentals.

[00:31:50] Nat Daudet: You can find it, my website, fertility awareness project.ca. And I just walk you through the science of how FAM works and whether it would be a good option for you and some of like the links and. Resources and temp thermometers and hormone tests that you can use to kind of get started. Amazing. And where can people find you on socials?

[00:32:11] Iris Josephina: I'm at Fertility Awareness Project. I will make sure to pop that in the show notes so people can easily find you. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your wisdom on this and to, yeah, to be really real. I love that about you. Like everything you share is just like you and your real, and your honest, and I love that about you.

[00:32:34] Nat Daudet: Thanks for having you. It was really lovely to connect.

[00:32:37] Iris Josephina: Okay, this wraps up today's episodes. Thank you so much for listening. Want to know more about me? The best way to reach me is via At Cycles Seeds on Instagram. And if you heard something today and you think, oh my God, wow, I learned something new, feel free to share the podcast on your social media and tag me or leave a review of rating.

[00:32:58] Iris Josephina: In this way. You help me reach more people like you. Thank you so much. 

grateful you're here. Let's dive into today's episode. 

[00:00:57] Hey friends. Welcome to this new episode of the Inner Rhythms Podcast. I'm sitting here with Nat. I'm really excited to be here with you. Welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to kick off your new season. So you are all into fertility awareness, fertility awareness practices, and charting.

[00:01:22] And people who are listening to this podcast are quite aware about tracking and charting, but to just get things really clear, shall we start with what exactly. Is charting and how are you working with it? Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of different ways when you think about tracking your cycles or tracking your periods, and there's a lot of different ways that you can do that.

[00:01:48] A lot of different levels of depth. The way that I approach fertility charting is an in-depth science backed approach to understanding your fertile window, and specifically using that information to avoid pregnancy. And it's really more than just charting your period dates. It's more than rhythm method thinking.

[00:02:13] It's charting ovulation in real time with your fertility signs and your fertility biomarkers. So yeah, I think not everybody needs to go this in depth into into charting, but having this level of information about your body and using that for birth control is something that I'm really passionate about.

[00:02:35] Yeah, me too. I was recently looking at my own charts and I've been charting since I was 22. I'm 34 now, so I have like a whole bunch, whole bunch of charts and it gives so much information. And you mentioned earlier the rhythm method, and I think that's a method that a lot of people like unconsciously, like do.

[00:02:57] Can you just go into how that method is significantly different and. Absolutely not to be trusted compared to charting. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, the rhythm method is, is really thinking that we all ovulate on day 14 and all have 28 day cycles and that you can use that to, you know, track your ovulation or know when near fertile, which.

[00:03:25] It's problematic because we don't all ovulate on day 14. We don't all have 28 day cycles. And even if you do have a regular cycle, there's no guarantee that it's going to be regular next cycle. So it's a very ineffective way to know when you're ovulating. It's based on a guess not based on the actual signs that are happening in your cycle every day.

[00:03:44] And. The more people that I talk to, the more maybe I've looked at, I think over like 1000 fertility charts at this point in my, in my teaching and I have, I can say that very few of them are 28 Ds, and most of us have some variation in our cycles, which is totally normal. So when we rely on rhythm method thinking, it's.

[00:04:06] It's one easy way to accidentally get pregnant because it's not accurately reflecting your real time ovulation or your real time cycle. Yeah. I love that. I sometimes say to my clients that rhythm method charts are fantasy charts because we kind of like make them up. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Because with the rhythm method, we can't like trust what we see because we base it on what we have seen before.

[00:04:34] Yeah. And when we chart, obviously we have our basal body temperature that we chart. Can you share a little bit about that and how that is important? I. Yeah, so basal body temperature is a progesterone sign, so once ovulation occurs, progesterone will increase and cause a change in our baseline temperature upon waking, so our basal body temperature.

[00:05:04] And so when we measure that every day, we can track a slight rise in our basal body temperature after ovulation. And know that ovulation in the past, it's already happened because that's reflecting an increase in progesterone. Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. And then a lot of people these days, I feel are having a hyper focus on charting through.

[00:05:31] Basal body temperature because there's so many devices out there that really push for charting with basal body temperature, which in essence is, I think it's like a, a good evolution that people are made aware of it, but it's so incomplete. And you and I know that cervical mucus is equally important when it comes to charting and.

[00:05:55] I wanted to ask you why. Why is that? Why is cervical mucus as important as charting your temperature, and what is the wisdom that we can get out of that, especially when it comes to preventing pregnancy, which is what you're teaching. Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. 'cause I just made a post about that this morning.

[00:06:14] I'm testing out natural cycles right now. Oh, and I have, I have tested it in the past. I'm doing another experiment this cycle, and I have a lot of people who are really upset with me who say like. Who will really defend natural cycles and say that natural cycles gives 'em really conservative green days.

[00:06:35] And that's just not been my experience doing my own experience experiment or talking to other people. And I think it's a good example of how we can't rely only on basal body temperature. So while basal body temperature does rise in relation to ovulation, when you look at the window of time that ov or that basal body temperature reflects.

[00:06:56] Ovulation, it's quite a wide window and you can even have a temperature shift occur before you ovulate. So it's like a wide window of time. And when we only rely on basal body temperature with the case of like natural cycles, you can get a green day a day that's good to go, to go and protect it. That's on a peak cervical mucus day.

[00:07:19] And so. We ignore cervical mucus. You're potentially having really risky sex on what looks like a safe day, but you're not relying on cervical mucus, which is like your insurance policy to basal body temperature. So using cervical mucus and basal body temperature when we're talking about symptom thermal fertility, awareness based methods.

[00:07:41] Is a way to really be certain that you're out of your fertile window in looking, not just at one fertility sign, but two. So you're really making sure that both of those things agree, and you're making sure that both of those things are saying the ovulation in the past and you're looking at whichever comes last.

[00:07:59] So I, I think that a lot of people think that natural cycles is giving them conservative green days because they're only looking at temperature. When I look at. What natural Cycles is giving me in terms of my cervical mucus, I've been given green days on days where I have peak type cervical mucus, which is a really Oh wow.

[00:08:18] Fertile day in the cycle, but it doesn't take cervical mucus into account. So tracking those two things is really important for. Closing the fertile window for knowing that ovulation in the past. And it also helps us open the fertile window, helps us know when ovulation is approaching as well. And apps like natural cycles.

[00:08:39] Don't look at cervical mucus for either of those things. I have a really love-hate relationship with fem tech. I like testing out a lot of fem tech, but I always say like, learn the rules before you break them. Like, learn how to interpret your chart. Before you go and add in algorithms or apps that are doing interpretations, because oftentimes they're wrong.

[00:09:01] And oftentimes if we don't know how it's coming up with an answer, it doesn't actually add to the safety of the method that you're using. Even though it feels like it is, it feels like you're adding in this level of security. It's usually not. Giving you very safe, conservative advice if you're avoiding pregnancy.

[00:09:23] So I think the best thing to do for somebody who wants to use fertility awareness to avoid pregnancy, and again, this isn't for everybody, but it's to learn. How to chart your cycle with the signs and how to interpret them yourself, and then you can go and add in all the fun gadgets and EmTech and all of the things because yeah, you can really get yourself into a risky situation if you are relying only on those apps or only on temperature.

[00:09:52] Yeah, I completely agree with you and I love your, I love how you explained that cervical mucus is like the insurance policy. Because it's, it's really true and it gives so much more extra information. And I have actually also seen clients who were just like, oh look, I've done my temperature and I've confirmed my ovulation.

[00:10:13] And I'm like, but your mucus. And then they had unprotected sex. And then I had to explain like, oh, there is actually actually a chance that you can be pregnant right now. Yeah. Yeah. Which is never something you want to tell people. No. Well, if they're trying to get pregnant, it's a different story. But if people are really trying to avoid pregnancy, it's like this, these stakes are high.

[00:10:34] Yes. Yeah, they are. And you know, it's always so interesting to me that these apps. Don't bill in an extra like tech thing where they, for example, count a certain amount of days after basal body temperature has risen and has stayed high for a couple of days to add in that extra security. Or natural cycles does use, like, it's not, you don't get your green day after your first higher temperature.

[00:11:06] It uses like kind of athermal rules. Mm. So it does give you a window there, but within that window you still could be having peak, tick, cervical mucus. Yeah. And if you're layering that on top of temperature, then you could be waiting a few extra days even after temperature temperatures are saying that you're safe.

[00:11:23] Yeah. So, and, and also sometimes it doesn't mark things correctly. Like I've had really weird. Weird, like you'd think that technology would be able to get to a point where it accurately charts the temperature shifts and the cover lines, but still it's not always foolproof and it's not always accurate.

[00:11:41] And I think the only way to know that it's actually like 100% accurate is if you do it yourself. Because if you're outsourcing, you just have no idea if and how it's. It's doing what it's doing, but if you do it yourself, you can be certain that you know like exactly what's going on. Yeah. I love that approach because a lot of people have a very passive attitude towards birth control in general.

[00:12:07] I feel. And when usually when people want to, for example, stop hormonal birth control, it is because they want to have like more agency, but then they just like move that agency into the hands of another. Thing or another tool, instead of really taking that agency and that sovereignty into their own hands.

[00:12:28] Yeah. And that's often a conversation that I need to have with clients, and I'm sure that you probably also have those kinds of conversations all the time. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So. With all of this charting and when we start learning this method, a lot of people have this misconception that, oh, at first my cycles need to be super regular before I can start using this method, because otherwise it's completely unsafe and it doesn't work.

[00:13:03] Obviously, you and I know that that is not true. So I wanted to ask you, how does it work when people have irregular. Cycles and they're not finding this like steady regularity in their menstrual cycles. Like many people struggle with this. It's for many people a reason to not start charting. And I wonder what your take is on that and how you go about that in your practice and with your clients and what you have to say about that.

[00:13:33] Yeah, I think part of it comes from that rhythm method thinking that if, if we think about how the rhythm method thinking works, it's that things have to be predictable in order for it to be effective. But with in-depth fertility charting, you're tracking ovulation in real time, so it really doesn't apply.

[00:13:48] I. If you're ovulating, no matter when that is in your cycle, you should be able to track it if you're charting your science properly and charting in a consistent way. So I have an 80 day cycle from October to. January and when I eventually ovulated, it was very clear. It was not unclear. I was able to apply all of the rules that I would in a regular cycle.

[00:14:14] It's just that it took longer for me to ovulate. So it's not true that you can't chart. If you have irregular cycles, you absolutely can't. And I believe that. The peace of mind that it gives you in a longer cycle is so worth it because you're not wondering like, am I pregnant? Why isn't my period coming?

[00:14:33] Why is it late? Instead, you're like, well, I'm pre ovulatory and I'm just waiting to ovulate. So that's really what you're grounding yourself into is where are you relative to ovulation. The tricky piece of it is when it comes to like, when are you available to go unprotected? So. With most fertility awareness based methods, specifically symptom athermal methods, there'll be a calculation to open the fertile window, which is based on a lot of different factors.

[00:14:59] And once that calculation tells you that your fertile window is open, then if ovulation is delayed, it might be a long time until you have available days to go unprotected again. So that's one downside of it is that you may just have a long stretch where going unprotected is not an option. You might need to.

[00:15:18] Have other types of sex or rely on barrier methods for symptom thermal methods that use calculations. That's the reality is that. You just have to wait a long time until you eventually do ovulate. So I, I feel like knowing, knowing that, and knowing the upside of like having the insight into where you are in your cycle is, is worth it.

[00:15:40] And everyone has their own worth it calculation and like what's important to them and how important going unprotected is to them. But I feel like we do need to like talk about that. Like, yes, it works for irregular cycles. However, there may be a time where an ovulation is delayed, where going unprotected is not an option.

[00:15:58] Mm-hmm. So what, what I'm hearing is that when you have an irregular cycle and you haven't seen ovulation the entire time before that happens, you still have the option to potentially move towards ovulation. So you can't go unprotected. Yeah, right. Basically once, yeah, basically once you enter your fertile window, so from cycle day one up until when your fertile window opens, those days are available, and then after that point.

[00:16:30] You've entered your ferdo based on a calculation and so you're waiting to see if you're gonna ovulate. 'cause it could happen at any time. And so yeah, essentially you're just, you're tracking to see if those changes in your hormones and changes in your cervical mucus are ending in ovulation. If you're in a long cycle, you'll have multiple ovulation attempts, so you may have changes in your cervical mucus.

[00:16:53] That don't end in ovulation, you're not able to confirm ovulation, and that may happen multiple times if you're in a cycle that's 60, 70, 80 days. And so you're treating that as if it could end in ovulation if you're avoiding pregnancy. Yeah. And that's how you stay safe and avoid pregnancy in longer cycles.

[00:17:13] Yeah. And I'm assuming it works a similar way when you are postpartum because then you're not Yes. It's one, yeah. It's one long pre ovulatory phase, and it can be, it could be a few weeks, it could be a whole year before your cycle comes back and yeah, it's, it's the same idea and, and it's the same when you come up birth control too.

[00:17:35] Sometimes people will have, mm-hmm. Delayed pre ovulatory or like delayed ovulation and long pre ovulatory phases. Not always, but sometimes. So there's a couple circumstances like PCOS, postpartum post birth control, where this happens more frequently. Yeah. Have you ever seen someone chart their cycle from the moment they've given birth and then all the way up until they started ovulating again?

[00:18:01] Yes, I have. I have seen. People charting from birth. For some people it's their fertility comes back very quickly, and for others it's a long, long time. Yeah, it just depends. Yeah. It is something that I am really excited about for when I ever get pregnant. My wish is to keep on charting all throughout pregnancy to have like a nine month chart and then see, oh yeah.

[00:18:28] I, I definitely would do the same thing. The more data the better. Yeah. And just, you know, just out of curiosity, like what does temperature do throughout pregnancy? Does it really stay that high, like in the beginning for implantation, or does it lower a bit or what's happening? Do you see more like thyroid like charts?

[00:18:48] Because the thyroid changes so much throughout pregnancy and postpartum, so I'm just very curious to. To collect that data and then also see like what happens postpartum and when will I be able to confirm ovulation again and how, how will that show up? Because I've heard that for some people, their cervical mucus patterns change after pregnancy.

[00:19:12] I don't know whether you know something about that. Yeah, I don't know too, too much about it. I think part of it is. You're in a delayed pre ovulatory time, so your mucus is unchanging for a long time until you have those little bumps of estrogen depending on if you're breastfeeding, like all those different factors.

[00:19:33] And then it can take like six months for your hormones to finally find their footing again after postpartum, like six cycles, sorry, six cycles. Once you start ovulating again. Yeah. So yeah, definitely cervical mucus can change depending on all of those different factors. And when you have a big hormonal change like pregnancy, it can absolutely influence your, your cycle and cervical mucus.

[00:20:00] Yeah. Yeah. So I feel that there is still like a lot of misconception around. You know what charting is and how scary it is to begin. And I wondered whether you can just speak to like maybe some words of encouragement for people who are like on the verge of wanting to try this, but are really afraid to get pregnant in the journey.

[00:20:27] Like, could you speak a little bit to that and maybe, you know, help people feel assured that this is really something that they can do. With the right guidance. Oh man. Yeah. I feel like this is such a good one. Where do I even start? I think everyone who starts with fertility awareness goes through a journey of self knowledge and confidence, and in those first three to six cycles, it's so common to feel nervous and to feel unsure, and to question yourself because it is a new skill and because we're not taught.

[00:21:06] We're not taught any of this, and we're also told that you can get pregnant all the time, every single day of your cycle. And so relearning and rewinding your brain and learning a new skill of charting can feel, it can feel like a lot, and I think. A lot of people are struggling because they're going alone and they're, they're trying to DIY and figuring it out themselves, and I think that can make things more complicated, especially if, if you're coming off birth control and your cycles don't look like the textbook.

[00:21:40] It's so common to feel overwhelmed. But truly over time it does get easier because you have more data and you're able to identify your patterns a lot easier and you're, you're, you're starting out with tons of information and tons of data and, and eventually you streamline it to, to chart in a way that makes sense to you and that fits your body's patterns.

[00:22:02] I was just on a call this morning with a client of mine who is in her 32nd fertility chart, so we started working together three years ago. And her I'd asked her, you know, it looks like you've really got a good handle on charting. And I said, does it feel that way? Like that's how it looks. And she said, yeah, I feel so much more confident than I did a year ago or two years ago.

[00:22:29] Things feel second nature now. They feel intuitive and I feel really confident with my chart. And the more periods I get, the more I trust that. I know what I'm doing, right? Like the more cycles go by where I don't get pregnant, I, I trust myself. And it was really cool to see someone who has really stuck with it for years and has the, the charts and confidence to show for it.

[00:22:56] Um, because yeah, it can be so overwhelming that you don't even start. It can be so overwhelming that you dip your toe in and. You don't continue. But if, if it's something that you really wanna do and you're, you're committed, then it's something that can work for you and you can be successful in it and you can avoid pregnancy.

[00:23:15] And I just celebrated my nine year fam anniversary and I haven't had any pregnancy scares in that time. And I feel so. Good about my chart every cycle, even in longer cycles. It's just something that comes so easily to me now that takes barely any thought and. You have to stick with those first three or six cycles to get over that hump and like really feel confident.

[00:23:43] And if it feels overwhelming and, and you really wanna do it, seek support. Like reach out to a fam educator, someone who can guide you through it. Because sometimes that makes all the differences. Having just like someone who you can ask your questions to and, and really. Make you feel more confident in yourself.

[00:24:05] That can sometimes make all the difference. Yeah, for sure. I remember with my journey, I really wanted someone to come and sit next to me and just explain it so that I didn't have to like get it out of a book and then hope I understood it and just have like this feedback moment like, oh, so this is, and, and that I could just ask a question and go like, so, oh, okay, so this is what you mean and this is how it works.

[00:24:29] And then have that confirmation. Yeah. And then have someone look at the charts and then, you know, sometimes we just need a little pat on the, on the back. Like, you're doing really well. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes you just need that little bit of encouragement. Yeah. And that can make a huge, a huge difference if you're reading the, the books that it's making sense to you and, and your charts are clear, all the power to you.

[00:24:56] But if not, then. The problem is usually that you don't have someone to go to who can answer your questions or explain it to you in a way that makes sense, because who's reading, taking charge of your fertility cover to cover like I have. Okay. There you go. Yeah. It's not an easy, it's not an easy way to learn for a lot of people.

[00:25:16] I know. For me, that's not how I learn. So yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of finding a way that makes sense to you in how you learn. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I'm just like, there's just this other question that pops into my brain, something that I also see very often, and I'm sure that you do too. Like how do you usually recommend people to, I.

[00:25:41] Deal with their environment when their environment is really skeptical or really unru like not trusting when the person really wants to start charting, whether it's family or a partner or friends. I'm just curious how, how you usually go about that and, and whether are, you have some encouraging words for people who experience that.

[00:26:04] Yeah, it's so common, isn't it, for someone to feel criticized by their doctor or family or friends because there are so many misconceptions I. And that can make it really hard to make the leap to, to do it, especially if you're someone who seeks validation in your decisions from other people, myself included.

[00:26:24] Um, so I think I've noticed that the more you learn and educate yourself, and there's so many resources available now to do that, the more confident you feel in your own decision making, and there are gonna be people who disagree. That's the reality. Like a lot of people still think that. Fertility awareness, isn ineffective.

[00:26:48] A lot of people don't know what it is. And the the reality is people are going to doubt you. And so getting as much information as you can so that you can make your own decision is the best thing that you can do. And if you decide to come off birth control and you try fertility awareness, and if not for you, you can always go back on birth control.

[00:27:10] It's not, it's not a life. Thing. You can always change your mind, but I think if it's something that you are really considering and it's something that's really nagging at you, follow that thread. And the, the more that you use fertility awareness, the more you become confident in it. The more sure of yourself you feel, even if people around you don't believe it works or don't know what it is.

[00:27:36] And the other thing too is like. You have so many resources and online communities that you can be a part of. If, if the people around you don't feel like good supports, there are so many ways that you can connect with people online, through Instagram or Facebook or, or online courses around fam that can be that community for you and make you feel like you're not crazy for, for using Sam.

[00:28:03] Yeah. I love that you also said that it's not like a lifetime thing. Like once you make the decision and it's not for you, you can always go back to another form of birth control. I love that you said that because I feel it. You know, in the fertility awareness space, there is like this final feeling like, oh, once you choose that you can never like.

[00:28:26] Step away from it ever again. And I, I love that you just named that because I feel that that is also something that a lot of people fear. Like, oh, once I go like the natural way. Mm-hmm. I can never go back because now I made this decision and I need to like show that I'll stick to it. I've had clients like that and it's really sad because if a method really doesn't work for you, you're allowed to shift.

[00:28:49] Like you're allowed to change. You're allowed to change your mind. Yeah. Yeah. And it just makes it so scary. So much scarier when you're like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, take my IUD out and use spam and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, if it doesn't work, you can always. Go back on birth control, like that's not really the end of the world.

[00:29:08] And so yeah, it just feels like this huge decision. And I remember feeling like that too, and I was like trying to figure out what to use for birth control. It is like, it's either this or it's that, and it's like, no. Sometimes we like, we can change our minds or we can change our fertility intentions and like what we're comfortable with.

[00:29:27] Like I used to be so scared of getting pregnant and now. It's not, it doesn't feel so intense. And so like our minds can change and how we feel about our cycles can change and, and yeah, it doesn't need to be such a scary, like, distinct decision. You can always, you can always change your mind. Yeah, that's very true.

[00:29:50] And usually when we think like that, the decision becomes. A lot easier. Yes. And when you have your options and when it doesn't work, there's like 5 million other things that you can do. Totally. So chill. Yeah. I feel like that's the wisdom of being in our thirties. Like yeah, lots can happen and things can change and it will.

[00:30:12] Okay. Yeah. I also had a few clients who really wanted to continue charting. After they'd given birth. Mm-hmm. But it was just like they were just awake all the time and they didn't feel confident to like keep charting, even with a fertility device like temp drop. They just didn't feel comfortable. And then they went on like the pill that you can take when you breastfeed.

[00:30:37] And they felt amazing on that. And I feel. You know, it's so important that we talk about that and that we name that because people often think like, oh, and I stick to one thing, I need to stick to it forever. Which is not true. Yes. Yeah. It's all or nothing thinking, isn't it? And it's really not the end of the world to be on birth control.

[00:30:57] It's like so fear mon and so easily on social media, it's just kind of like demonized. And I'm sure there, like there's all. Sure there are side effects, but it's, it's really not the end of the world. And there are lots of things in life where we have to weigh the pros and cons and only you can make that decision and come to it freely and not feeling like you're in a panic.

[00:31:23] And yeah, allow yourself to, to change your mind too. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that that is good wisdom. To end with. Are there any other things that you would like people to know, charting or any I don't think so. I think if people are curious of like what does in-depth fertility charting mean? I have a free video course called FAM Fundamentals.

[00:31:50] You can find it, my website, fertility awareness project.ca. And I just walk you through the science of how FAM works and whether it would be a good option for you and some of like the links and. Resources and temp thermometers and hormone tests that you can use to kind of get started. Amazing. And where can people find you on socials?

[00:32:11] I'm at Fertility Awareness Project. I will make sure to pop that in the show notes so people can easily find you. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your wisdom on this and to, yeah, to be really real. I love that about you. Like everything you share is just like you and your real, and your honest, and I love that about you.

[00:32:34] Thanks for having you. It was really lovely to connect.

[00:32:37] Okay, this wraps up today's episodes. Thank you so much for listening. Want to know more about me? The best way to reach me is via At Cycles Seeds on Instagram. And if you heard something today and you think, oh my God, wow, I learned something new, feel free to share the podcast on your social media and tag me or leave a review of rating.

[00:32:58] In this way. You help me reach more people like you. Thank you so much.