Episode 42 - The Fifth Vital Sign: Fertility Awareness Uncovered with Lisa Henderson-Jack

🐚 Topics covered

• Introduction to the guest and an overview of their work.
• Understanding fertility awareness and its benefits for users.
• Using the Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) with irregular cycles and during postpartum.
• Exploring the diversity of cervical fluid patterns, how these may differ from standard examples in books.
• Discussion on whether FAM practices are based predominantly on white bodies and how to ensure inclusivity in FAM teachings.
• Closing thoughts and key wisdom shared by Lisa

About Lisa
Lisa Hendrickson-Jack is a certified Fertility Awareness Educator and Holistic Reproductive Health Practitioner who trains women’s health practitioners to use their menstrual cycle as a vital sign in their practices. She is the founder of the Fertility Awareness Mastery MentorshipTM program. She is the author of three bestselling books: Real Food For Fertility (co-authored with Lily Nichols), The Fifth Vital Sign, and the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook. 

Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence-based approach to help women connect to their fifth vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility, and overall health — something our education systems have consistently failed to do. With well over 4 million downloads, her podcast, Fertility Friday, is the #1 source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health. 

When she’s not researching, writing, and mentoring women's health professionals, you’ll find her spending time with her husband, her two sons, and her baby girl.

Where to find Lisa

Website: www.fertilityfriday.com 

Instagram: ​​https://www.instagram.com/fertilityfriday/ 

More about Iris

💬Come say ‘Hi’ on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/cycleseeds/
🎓Check out our offerings https://www.cycleseeds.com/ 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Lisa Henderson Jack - Pioneering Fertility Awareness Educator
• 3:18 Lisa's Personal Journey: From Birth Control Pills to Fertility Awareness
• 11:33 What is Fertility Awareness? Understanding the Basics and Benefits
• 17:19 Managing Irregular Cycles with Fertility Awareness Methods
• 31:51 Postpartum Fertility Awareness: When and How to Start Tracking
• 38:04 Cervical Fluid Patterns: Understanding Variations and Research Findings
• 46:16 Birth Control's Impact on Cervical Health and Fertility
• 52:39 Getting Started with Fertility Awareness: Essential Resources and Tips
• 55:34 Connect with Lisa: Social Media, Podcast, and Professional Resources
• 57:17 Episode Wrap-up and Call to Action

Transcript

[00:00:00] Iris Josephina: Hi friends. So I managed to track down Lisa and draw her in for the podcast and I'm so so so grateful because you know Lisa is one of these old school people who was doing fertility awareness before it was cool, before it was mainstream and that's what I love so much about her. So Lisa Hendrickson Jack is a certified fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner.

[00:00:29] Iris Josephina: Who trains women's health practitioners to use their menstrual cycle as a vital sign in their practices. She's the founder of the Fertility Awareness Mastery Mentorship Program. She's the author of three best selling books, Real Food for Fertility, which is co authored with Lily Nichols. The Fifth Vital Sign and the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook.

[00:00:52] Iris Josephina: Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want to have children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence based approach to help women connect to their fifth vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility, and overall health.

[00:01:15] Iris Josephina: Something our education systems have consistently failed to do with well over 4 million downloads. Her podcast Fertility Friday is the number one source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health. When she's not researching, writing and mentoring women's health professionals, you'll find her spending time with her husband, her two sons and her baby girl.

[00:01:37] Iris Josephina: To learn more, visit her website in the show notes. So, like I said, Hanging out with Lisa in one room is just so cool because she's one of the old school folks. Like I said, she was doing fertility awareness before it was cool. And I love her story. Like, she shares how she started and it's just so endearing and so beautiful and I can't wait for you to hear it.

[00:02:01] Iris Josephina: And we mainly spoke about what fertility awareness is and why it is so helpful, how we can use fertility awareness with irregular cycles and postpartum, because that is really something that we haven't gotten into. And I've also spoken with her about cervical fluid patterns. And on top of that, she also shared what she really wants people to know when it comes to fertility awareness.

[00:02:27] Iris Josephina: So, enjoy listening!

[00:02:32] Iris Josephina: You're listening to the podcast of Iris Josefina. If you're passionate about exploring the menstrual cycle, cyclical living, body wisdom, personal growth, spirituality, and running a business in alignment with your natural cycles, you're in the right place. I'm Iris. I'm an entrepreneur, functional hormone specialist, trainer, and coach.

[00:02:53] Iris Josephina: And I'm on a mission to share insights, fun facts, and inspiration I discover along the way as I run my business and walk my own path on earth. Here, you'll hear my personal stories. Guest interviews and vulnerable shares from clients and students. Most people know me from Instagram, where you can find me under at cycle seeds, or they have been a coaching client or student in one of my courses.

[00:03:18] Iris Josephina: I'm so grateful you're here. Let's dive into today's episode. Hi, Lisa, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy you're here. Before we dive into all the juicy topics about fertility awareness, can you share a little bit more with us about who you are and what your work is about? 

[00:03:41] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Sure. How long do you have?

[00:03:43] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Just kidding. Um, well, so, uh, I, obviously my name, Lisa Hendrickson Jack, I'm an author. I've written a couple of books at this point. My first book, The Fifth Vital Sign. And then I wrote a accompanying workbook to go with that. And my recent book, Real Food for Fertility, which I coauthored with Lily Nichols.

[00:04:03] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So that part of my work has been really fun to be able to provide resources. for women to really help deepen their knowledge, especially in the area of fertility awareness, cycle awareness, hormone health, all of those great topics. And so I am a certified fertility awareness educator. I've been teaching women to chart their cycles for about a part of the last 20 years, which is crazy.

[00:04:28] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Like how old am I? I discovered fertility awareness when I was quite young, which I think was a huge blessing. So I was shortly out of high school and I was on the pill for Like a lot of women, you know, period issues. I had heavy painful periods and the doctors put me on the pill and I hadn't used it for birth control.

[00:04:47] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so when I decided that I needed birth control, I decided to come off the pill because I did have some concerns about my periods being so painful. And every now and then, like, so when I was on the pill, my Withdrawal bleeds. My fake periods were a lot more manageable. And so every now and then I would come off of the pill to see if I was fixed.

[00:05:07] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But, you know, spoiler alert, like I wasn't and my periods would come back with a vengeance every time I came off. So I decided to come off at the point when I was needing birth control just to try to see if I could figure it out. So basically knew nothing. But that was my goal. And so somewhere along the way, I discovered fertility awareness and that really helped me to feel so much more confident in my decision to not use hormonal birth control.

[00:05:32] Lisa Henderson-Jack: My plan was to use condoms and then with the understanding and cycle awareness that I had gathered, that made me feel so much better. And. That's kind of how it all started. And somewhere along the way, I was just really excited that fertility awareness could be used as birth control. So initially that was the whole thing that I was aware of.

[00:05:52] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But shortly into my journey, one of my charting instructors she said, you know, Lisa, your temperatures are too low and your cycles are too long. I think you should get your thyroid tested. And it was really at that stage that I realized that this is about more than just birth control, that there's this link between your cycle and health.

[00:06:10] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so that kind of moment and That part of my journey really led me to where I am today where I don't just talk about charting for the sake of charting, but also as a window into your health. 

[00:06:21] Iris Josephina: I love that you were so young when you discovered all of this. Like, I know that many women are like well in their 30s or late 20s when they like have this awakening of like, hey, fertility awareness exists.

[00:06:35] Iris Josephina: That's such a beautiful, such a beautiful experience. 

[00:06:39] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Looking back, I feel like I can say I think it was meant to be. Because I don't think that it I just personally don't really believe in coincidences, so I, I can be like, Oh, it's just a coincidence, but, and especially after all these years working with so many women who discover it like through me, or they discover it when they're in their thirties or in their forties, which is still great.

[00:06:56] Lisa Henderson-Jack: It's still, it's harder when you're a little bit older and you discover all of this information about your body that no one told you. So it can certainly feel bittersweet, but certainly I'm very thankful that I stumbled across this when I was basically still like a teenager. Like I was 18 or 19 when I kind of fell into this rabbit hole.

[00:07:13] Iris Josephina: Yeah, and I'm also curious, how did your environment respond to this, especially when you're so young? 

[00:07:20] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Well, so I mean these were my university days. So back then how I discovered it I went to this talk like we had a Women's Center on campus and they brought in these cool speakers And there was this woman who wrote a book and I still have the book on my shelf Actually, the name of the book is cunt So that's what it's called.

[00:07:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I know it's a swear word, but that's the name of the book. And the author is Inga Mecio. And so she came to my campus and she read from her book. And so It's a book basically about, like, vaginas, the menstrual cycle, and it's, she's kind of really artistic, so it's like, it's not, like, scientific informational, it's almost kind of poetic, and it's very unique, uh, book.

[00:08:01] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Anyways, so she was reading, and somewhere in that book, I, I, I remember when I was writing The Fifth Vital Sign, I was like, I opened the book to try to find out where, She had wrote this specific passage, but she talked about this, you know, that she had learned that she could tell when she was ovulating by checking her cervix and all that kind of stuff.

[00:08:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And that was the first time I'd heard about this concept of fertility awareness. And because it was through that Women's Center, I went to, like, I graduated from high school in the year 2000. So, this was like before cell phones and social media, like all the things. So I had to physically go to the Women's Center and like talk to people and they had all these, I remember they just did all this cool stuff.

[00:08:35] Lisa Henderson-Jack: They had, I remember they had this, workshop where they went through all the different period products to try to tell us which ones were like good versus bad and all the things. So they had a lot of cool things going on. And it was through that organization that I think that's how I found Taking Charge of Your Fertility.

[00:08:49] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I bought Taking Charge of Your Fertility soon after I discovered this, read it, started charting. And then it was shortly after that, that I discovered a group of women on campus. So a separate group of women, and they would meet every month for like nine months in a row, and then they would take a break and do it again.

[00:09:07] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So that was the Fertility Awareness Charting Circle. So that was where I first came into contact with Fertility Awareness Educators. So the women who were leading the group were part of one of the organizations that teaches Fertility Awareness. And, you know, the founder would come to the session sometimes.

[00:09:23] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So this was all going on when I was very young. And so not only did I discover charting, but I discovered the kind of more professional aspect of it. Cause I was, you know, I'm good to go. I was like, you know, charting my cycles with taking charge of your fertility. But then all of a sudden I'm around these instructors who are giving me more information, answering questions, helping me to deepen into my knowledge.

[00:09:42] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I just kept coming to these monthly meetings. And so eventually I became an organizer and a group of us when I was in my early twenties. took a training program together. And so all of that was going on in my early twenties. But at that time, like I said, that was before. This onslaught of social media and all these different options.

[00:10:01] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I could never see it, how I could make this into a career. Like I was obviously really passionate about it and made a big difference in my life. We were teaching at a grassroots level, you know, we'd post our meetings in coffee shops and charge like a optional, you know, 5, you know, for just the participation.

[00:10:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: No one made any money. The money would go towards whatever we needed, materials, or maybe it went towards our training, but I don't think we made enough to even cover that. I don't remember how we paid for our training. I think we shared the cost actually, but that's how we started. So it was very far from my mind.

[00:10:31] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I had thought about it, you know, this would be great to do this for a living, but I was like, how would I find clients? Like how would anyone know me? And then enter the internet. And here we are. 

[00:10:42] Iris Josephina: This is such a cool story. I love that you were just like one of the like revolutionaries, the pioneers of this in the field.

[00:10:51] Iris Josephina: And I think it's so beautiful how it all unfolded for you. And I love that there were circles. On campus. Like, that's so nice. I wonder whether they still do that on campus. 

[00:11:03] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Yeah, I think, I mean, the organization, like I said, it's the Fertility Awareness Charting Circle. If anyone's in Edmonton, Alberta, you can search it up and see if they're still holding meetings.

[00:11:12] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I don't think any of the original organizers are, because it was so long ago, right? Um, and I'm obviously not there either, but I do think that it possibly is still going on. So fun, fun stories. 

[00:11:24] Iris Josephina: Yeah, so I can imagine that people who aren't like, 10 minutes in now as talking about all of this and thinking, what is fertility awareness?

[00:11:33] Iris Josephina: Can you like track back a little bit and share with us what is fertility awareness and why can it be helpful for people to use? 

[00:11:41] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Mm hmm. For sure. I kind of alluded to some of the things, but I didn't give a proper explanation. So I mean, the basic understanding of fertility awareness is the ability to know what's happening in your menstrual cycle.

[00:11:53] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So the ability to identify which days of the cycle are fertile days. which days of the cycle are not fertile days, and even to be able to predict when your period is coming. And so there's like the general comment of being aware, but there are also a variety of fertility awareness based methods that utilize several of the common signs of fertility that we can observe throughout our menstrual cycle.

[00:12:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so if you take it to another level, you can, you know, learn one of these fertility awareness based methods and then use it for a purpose. So I shared that when I was younger, my first gravitation to this method was because I learned that we weren't fertile every day. I mean, I was taught that in junior high, along with pretty much every other woman I've ever met, that, you know, there's no safeties, you can get pregnant anytime, but they didn't provide education about our cycle.

[00:12:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So you just have like the fear without any knowledge. You're just like terrified all the time without any understanding of how this even works. And so what I found was that when I learned. So if we go through the menstrual cycle, the first day of your cycle would be the first day of your true flow, even if you have a couple days of spotting or something before that flow, the first day that you start your period.

[00:13:00] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then as you go through your cycle in a typical kind of healthy cycle, after your period finishes, you would typically have a few days before you start to see cervical fluid. So we call those days your dry days. And then once you start to see cervical fluid, and cervical fluid can look like creamy white hand lotion, it can look like clear, stretchy, raw egg whites, and many women have noticed this, even if they didn't know what it was, they might feel wet, they might notice stuff on their underwear, they might notice that There's days when they go to the bathroom and they wipe themselves and it's super slippery or it feels like you have to like wipe multiple times in order to get it dry, whereas other times aren't like that.

[00:13:39] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So however you experience that though, that would mark your fertile window. So those days where you're actually observing cervical fluid would be the days that You could theoretically conceive because that cervical mucus can keep the sperm alive for up to five days. So it holds it in place and keeps it alive, nourishes it until the egg finally drops at ovulation.

[00:14:00] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then once you ovulate, you know, there's a lot of different changes that happen. All of these things that I'm talking about are governed by our hormones and the main ovarian hormones that we're paying attention to are estrogen and progesterone. So after you ovulate is when you produce progesterone and the progesterone has a thermogenic effect on the body.

[00:14:19] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So it actually causes your temperature to rise and you can measure that. And that was one of the things as well. All of these signs are fascinating to me. The mucus was fascinating when I first discovered charting. The temperature was really fascinating because You can plot it on a graph like it's pretty black and white, right?

[00:14:33] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So it was really interesting to see that every time I would ovulate my temperature would then go up afterwards and stay raised until I would have my next period and being like 20 years into this, it's like kind of, you know, like I'm really used to it by now. But what's interesting about it is that like cyclicity piece.

[00:14:50] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So you, it happens over and over again. It doesn't always happen in the exact same way. It doesn't happen on the exact same day. So it's not really about predicting by day, but it's understanding this kind of pattern of your body and to be able to actually trust it. It's a whole scientific thing. So those are just two of the signs.

[00:15:07] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Some women will pay attention to their cervical position and there's certain fertility awareness based methods that utilize Hormonal markers, so they might utilize like an ovulation strip or even like a monitor that measures for the estrogen Progesterone metabolites or things like that. And so when we kind of get into the weeds For women who want to avoid pregnancy without hormones, there's a lot of women who have negative side effects and different, um, unfortunate experiences on hormonal birth control.

[00:15:35] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So there's a lot of women that gravitate to this method because maybe they've just had enough. Like maybe they've had some really negative side effects and they were kind of under the impression that that was the only option, that was the only way that they could do this. So I've had a lot of women in my programs who like literally are at their wits end and then they discover fertility awareness and they're like, wow, like I didn't think there was another option.

[00:15:54] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I thought I would just have to, you know, go on a different birth control pill or try another IUD or whatever. And so a lot of women gravitate to it for that. And then obviously a lot of women find this method when they're trying to get pregnant. And it's so crazy because we're told that we can get pregnant all the time, but then.

[00:16:08] Lisa Henderson-Jack: For anyone who's been trying to conceive for a while, it's not happening. You could be having all the sex, right? And not conceive. And so timing is huge, especially because a lot of women, we are not taught anything. So we're told that we ovulate on day 14. So everyone tries to have sex on day 14, but depending on your cycle, you could be ovulating earlier than that.

[00:16:28] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You could be ovulating later than that. So for a lot of women, just that's when they discover like, wait a minute, there's something to this timing thing. I guess I'm not fertile every day. And the fertility awareness aspect of it really helps you to clarify which days are actually fertile because it's not every day and you can legit, legitimately, you know, miss out on that opportunity to conceive cycle after cycle if you're mistiming.

[00:16:53] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So that's like a little intro primer. I mean, obviously I can talk about it all day, but that's the basics. 

[00:16:58] Iris Josephina: Thank you for sharing all of that. And you mentioned earlier that there is like the regularity of the cycle that we can see like a pattern. But how does it work when people have a more irregular cycle or when they are postpartum and they're like awaiting the ovulation for the first time again after all these months of pregnancy and after birth?

[00:17:19] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Mm hmm. That's a great question. And I think I'll address those two topics separately. So I think first I could talk about irregular cycles and then remind me if I forget, we can go back into the postpartum. So I think one of the biggest myths about fertility awareness, well, first of all, that it's the rhythm method.

[00:17:33] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And even if you don't think about it in terms of calling it the rhythm method, I think because we are so used to this concept of a 28 day menstrual cycle and a day 14 ovulation, that even if you don't necessarily think fertility awareness is the rhythm method, you're still looking for this pattern 

[00:17:50] Iris Josephina: and 

[00:17:50] Lisa Henderson-Jack: you're still anticipating it.

[00:17:52] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So one thing, the kind of myth about fertility awareness charting is that it can only work if your cycles are regular. But that's coming from that rhythm method thinking of it has to always be the same because we're guessing when you're fertile based on your previous cycles, but that's not how fertility awareness works.

[00:18:10] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So with modern fertility awareness based methods, we're looking at those biomarkers. So we're looking at your cervical fluid, you know, are you seeing it? When are you seeing it? When does it start? What does it look like? And the cervical position is an optional sign, but that as well. We might be looking at, like I said, the hormone testing, depending on the method that a person is using.

[00:18:29] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so even if the cycle is not the same, even if the cycle is irregular, you can still use it. So to give an example. You know, the definition of an irregular cycle, first of all, would be a cycle that varies more than eight days from cycle to cycle. So there's a lot of women that have normal cycles that have some normal variation, but they think the cycles are irregular because we're so ingrained with this 28 day thing that if your cycles are, you know, sometimes 33 days and sometimes 27 and sometimes it's, we think that that's irregular, but that's actually just normal variation.

[00:19:04] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So the first part of the answer about irregular cycles is that we would want to define if your cycles are truly irregular. So to meet that definition, they vary more than eight days from cycle to cycle, or if they're regularly over 35 days. So that would be more like it's 42 days one cycle, and then it's 28, and then it's, you know, 36, like that would be more of truly irregular.

[00:19:25] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You can still use fertility awareness, even if the cycle is irregular, because again, we're basing our decisions on what we're seeing in real time. But obviously it does come with some challenges. So I've worked with some clients who, let's say they have what I would call uncontrolled PCOS, because the whole thing with the cycle as the fifth vital sign, if we're thinking about it that way, is that when your cycle is regularly following outside of normal parameters, it does mean that there is something that's wrong.

[00:19:54] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So when a woman does regularly have these really abnormal, or not abnormal, but really long kind of irregular cycles. Typically, there's a reason for that. 

[00:20:04] Iris Josephina: So 

[00:20:04] Lisa Henderson-Jack: one of the common reasons would be something like PCOS, polycystic ovary syndrome. So if we use that as an example, I can think of clients whose cycles were long.

[00:20:13] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You know, they would be like 42 days or 45 days in between periods. And often, when they're tracking their cycle, especially with PCOS, some of these clients would have multiple days of mucus. So in a normal, healthy cycle, We would expect there to be somewhere between, you know, two and seven days of mucus that would lead to ovulation, and then you would ovulate.

[00:20:33] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So in a normal healthy cycle, we would expect there to be like a patch of mucus, like you just have mucus for a while, and then it goes away, and then you ovulate, right, all the things. But for many of these women, it's a delayed ovulation. That's why their cycles are so long. So they may have some follicular development, like they're trying to ovulate, they start to see mucus, but then there's a reason that ovulation is not happening.

[00:20:55] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So in PCOS, it's characterized by insulin resistance. It's you know, it's an inflammatory condition. So there's different reasons, different things that are kind of delaying that ovulation. So some clients would see like all this mucus, like lots of days, other clients might see mucus for a little bit, and then it goes away.

[00:21:12] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then they see mucus again, and then it goes away. So one of the challenges is that although you can still use the method for birth control, because of all those days of mucus or all those different patches, there are many, many days that you have to consider fertile in this example. 

[00:21:26] Iris Josephina: And 

[00:21:26] Lisa Henderson-Jack: so it can be frustrating, it can be challenging.

[00:21:28] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I think it's also a good reminder if your cycles are consistently Irregular. It's a good kind of piece of information for you to note that there's, we should be looking at what's happening, what the underlying causes and working to rectify that. I've also had a number of clients in this situation who really work towards addressing some of those reasons that they're having the cycle of regularities and, and manage to get their cycles into the normal range over time.

[00:21:54] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so that's obviously the goal, but I guess the takeaway is that. Fertility awareness is still going to work. It's just that there could be some challenges. Obviously, if let's say if you have a 45 day cycle, let me see if I can do my math. So you're, let's say ovulation in that scenario might be day 32.

[00:22:10] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So the challenge can be that there, there'd be many days in that 32 day window where you might have to consider yourself fertile. You might have to use an alternate. You know, barrier method or something like that. So for some women, they're fine with that, but other women might find it to be difficult to have that long of a period of time where they may have to use protection.

[00:22:29] Iris Josephina: Thank you for clarifying that. I feel that this is such a mystery for so many people, and a lot of people do think that they can only use this method when they're having like very super regular cycles. But it's really, like, relieving to hear that even when you don't have a regular cycle, you can use this method.

[00:22:50] Iris Josephina: It just comes with a little bit of extra caretaking and maybe some extra protection if you're not looking to get pregnant. 

[00:22:58] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I would say, arguably, there would be an argument for you to chart your cycles when they're irregular, first of all, to alert you as to what's really going on. You know, sometimes we, if we're not paying attention to our cycles.

[00:23:11] Lisa Henderson-Jack: It's like, Oh, you know, some months I just skip a period like you can, you can kind of have this like laissez faire really casual attitude, but as soon as you start tracking this stuff and writing it down, then you start to be aware of potentially how problematic it really is. And for many, many women, what I have found is that charting is one of the most powerful ways I think to really help us to, to start organizing ourselves to do the things we need to do to have healthy cycles and healthy hormones.

[00:23:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Because when it's looking you in the face, you know, every day and you're charting and you're not ovulating yet and it's still not happening and it's, you know, day 31 and, you know, am I going to ovulate yet? That can be just such an incredible motivation for women who might just not have been either. It brings a lot of awareness.

[00:23:58] Lisa Henderson-Jack: They might not have been aware that there's an issue. They might have thought it wasn't so bad, but then when they see it, you know, that often sparks this. Like light the fire, you could say, yeah, I think a lot of people would think, Oh, if my cycles are like this, I shouldn't chart, but I would say the opposite.

[00:24:13] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I would say that it can be the start of a very powerful journey that hopefully ends up with you really learning about what was going on to cause those cycle irregularities, making some corrections. And it is possible to rectify that. It's possible to go from having these long cycles to having regular cycles, although for many women, it takes quite a bit of work and lifestyle changes and different things to address some of those underlying factors.

[00:24:37] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Like I said, with PCOS, often it's the insulin resistance that we have to address initially. So looking at the diet, looking at macronutrient ratios, making sure we're getting enough protein. Making sure we're not just consuming all the sugary things that are spiking the insulin and making this problem worse.

[00:24:56] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And for many women, when they focus on that for a while and then learn a bit more about the condition and some of the things they can do to just optimize their metabolic factors that minimize the inflammation, all the things that they can really see an improvement. So yeah, so huge takeaways when you start to chart your cycles.

[00:25:13] Iris Josephina: Yeah, definitely. And I can second that. I've seen women shorten their charts and being very happy about that and also conceiving even after not being able to conceive for a long time. 

[00:25:26] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And it's such a relief to have another alternative because for anyone who's listening who's been in a situation like that, when you go to the doctor, the pill is the answer for everything menstrual cycle related.

[00:25:37] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I remember, as I mentioned, when I started charting, my cycles were a little bit on the longer side. And looking back, I do think that it was related to my thyroid, but I do think that there's a little bit of like insulin resistance with me and so my family, I have other family members, you know, that have been diabetic or pre diabetic or things like that.

[00:25:56] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So fortunately, I've been able to since improve that. So my cycles do typically fall within normal range now, which is great. But I remember even myself going to the doctor in my twenties and I said, okay, my cycles are like an on average, they were 38 days back then. And the doctor said, well, there's nothing you could do.

[00:26:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: The pill is the solution, right? Like that's and many women are told that. So I think it's also nice to hear that it is possible to normalize your cycles. It can take some work if you're wanting to do it in a more natural way. And it's not the same as taking a pill because it can take a little bit of time.

[00:26:32] Lisa Henderson-Jack: It can take several cycles before you start to see like that kind of true shift. But it is possible. I've certainly seen it with many of my clients. 

[00:26:40] Iris Josephina: Yeah, me too. And that's really it gives hope to people like hearing these stories. So thank you for sharing that. I'm also just very curious. Do you have all your charts from the beginning still?

[00:26:51] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Well, I don't know if I would pretend to be that perfect. Because it's literally 20 years. I've had three pregnancies in the middle of that as well. So there's been seasons. And then when I started charting, there was no tech. So I've had periods of time. So I do have my old charts from when I was in my early twenties, because I would, I charted in books, like I made inbound.

[00:27:12] Lisa Henderson-Jack: a book, because back then it was literally like an Excel spreadsheet. And so I went to the printing place and I made these books. I was like selling these books in my twenties to like my friends. And like, I actually have my first charting books. I keep them around and sometimes I'll hold them up for my clients and stuff like that.

[00:27:30] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I have many of my charts. There have been periods of time when I did chart with apps. And I almost like, I don't regret it because it's fine, but so there would have been a time when I charted a bit with Kindara, but I don't chart with Kindara anymore. And who knows where those charts are, you know what I mean?

[00:27:47] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I know that I do have some colleagues who only chart on paper and they have every single chart. I have many years worth of charts though. Uh, and. I have, and I go in between paper, and occasionally I use an app, and like I said, I've had breaks in between with pregnancies and things, so hopefully that's a good answer, but I have most of them.

[00:28:10] Iris Josephina: Yeah, did you also chart during your pregnancies? Because I'm in my preconception phase, and I'm just imagining how cool it would be if I could just keep charting and then see how many days my pregnancy actually is. Did you chart during pregnancy? 

[00:28:24] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So interestingly, I recommend for my clients that they stop charting when they get pregnant.

[00:28:29] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So that would be a personal decision. I think that if you're really keen to do it, like don't like just take this all with a grain of salt. So the reason that I typically make that recommendation for clients is because I often worked with clients who were Trying to conceive for quite some time. And so when they finally conceive, for some women, that charting process can be a bit stressful.

[00:28:51] Iris Josephina: Yeah. 

[00:28:51] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You know, as they're charting, and then they're trying around ovulation, and then there's the two week wait. So there's a lot of women who do find they have a bit of a conflicted relationship with it. So I think for most of my clients who were in that, because I did one of my most popular programs, It was my Get Pregnant Naturally program, and so I worked with many, many clients who were actively trying to conceive, and many of whom tried for quite a while, so fertility clients, and so for that group of women, It's kind of like time to celebrate the pregnancy, you know, and also it can add a bit of stress because at the beginning, at the very, very beginning, when you first conceive and you're charting, so what typically happens, you see the first temperature shift after ovulation, and in some charts, you'll actually see another shift, like another step.

[00:29:41] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And in other charts, you'll just kind of continue to see like a bit of a line going up. But what can happen is like any time you're charting, your temperature isn't always the same. So sometimes the temperature goes up a little, then it goes just a little, it goes up. And so, you know, Especially if you've been trying to conceive for a while, or I've had clients who've had, you know, history of miscarriage and things like that.

[00:30:00] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Like it's just every time the temperature changes at all, it can just cause like just so much stress. Right. So anyway, so that is what I recommend for my clients for myself. I did not continue charting. I conceived in all three times. So I have an 11 year old, an 8 year old, and a soon to be 2 year old.

[00:30:17] Lisa Henderson-Jack: She'll be 2 next week. And, uh, so every time I knew I was pregnant, as soon as I went beyond my normal luteal phase length, because I've been charting for like so many years. So like, I don't have 16 day luteal phases, right? So, uh, my longest luteal phases are, I've had a couple that were like 15 days. 14 days is typically the max.

[00:30:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So as soon as I get into that territory, you know, my last pregnancy, I did take the pregnancy test, but just to like confirm for my husband, I was like, I'm pregnant. And he's just like, come on, Lisa, it's too soon. I was like, really? Like I literally wrote a book on it and I teach this stuff, but I peed on a stick for him.

[00:30:55] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And that was the whole thing. So for me personally, this super long answer, but for me personally, I did not continue, but there are, I would say there's a benefit of, I feel like just working with as many clients as I have, I think just you don't have to just stop. But once you get in the habit of let's say checking for mucus and things like that, you can't necessarily like not look at it anymore.

[00:31:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: What I say is there is a benefit to paying attention to any changes in cervical fluid. So to give an example, many women find that during pregnancy, their cervical fluid might change a little bit. So some women will find that they actually have a lot of the lotiony stuff just because of the increase in hormones and all things.

[00:31:32] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But if you do notice like a shift or a change or if it turns yellow or if there's a smell, you know, that there is some value in being able to pick up a potential infection or something that could actually have a detrimental effect on the pregnancy, but I don't recommend beyond that. And I think you don't have to write it all down for that.

[00:31:49] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You can actually just kind of pay attention. 

[00:31:51] Iris Josephina: And then how quickly after birth would you recommend to start charting again? 

[00:31:58] Lisa Henderson-Jack: That's a great question. So for someone who's wanting to use this method after birth, you can start charting once your period stops. So the post, once you've had a baby, the bleeding following that.

[00:32:13] Lisa Henderson-Jack: is called 

[00:32:14] Iris Josephina: lochia, 

[00:32:15] Lisa Henderson-Jack: typically lasting somewhere, you know, three to four weeks, depending on the woman. So when I talk about postpartum charting, I typically divide it into two phases, phase one and two. And phase one postpartum, that essentially is the period of time between when you have your baby and when you have your first period.

[00:32:32] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So in a way, it's like kind of like a really long preovulatory phase. That's one way to look at it. And depending on if you're breastfeeding or how frequently or all of those other things, that will have a really significant effect for how long it takes you to have that first ovulation. So when you're in that phase, the temperature doesn't provide you with a heads up about ovulation.

[00:32:55] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I think one of the challenges for women when it comes to postpartum charting, especially women who were charting previously, is that many women rely very heavily on the temperature. 

[00:33:06] Iris Josephina: Uh huh. 

[00:33:06] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Because cervical mucus can be a bit challenging. And so not everybody is as comfortable and confident with their cervical mucus charting, but the temperature is, you know, like we got this, right?

[00:33:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So what happens when we take the temperature away? Because essentially before you have your very first period, you have to ovulate first. And your temperature doesn't rise until after you've ovulated picks up on the progesterone rise and the corresponding shift. So in that phase one postpartum, we would be paying attention to cervical fluid.

[00:33:37] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So from that perspective, once your period is done, you can start checking for cervical fluid on a daily basis, identifying what is typical for you if you're noticing a pattern day to day. And that will really help you to identify. That kind of mucous patch that happens before that first period, so we're trying to catch the fertile window before your ovulation, which happens before your first period, because it is possible to get pregnant before you've ever had a period postpartum.

[00:34:08] Iris Josephina: Thank you for clarifying that. I feel that's going to help a lot of women understand. how that mechanism works, because I've also met people in my practice who were like, Oh, but breastfeeding protects against pregnancy, right? I'm like, uh, not exactly like it's kind 

[00:34:24] Lisa Henderson-Jack: of like supportive, but well, so I mean, the breastfeeding comment or the relationship is very interesting.

[00:34:31] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I've looked at the research. So the breastfeeding meth, like breastfeeding as birth control. That would be called the lactation amenorrhea method. So it's actually a method. When you read the research, it's very interesting because what they say is that it's 98 percent effective. So in this specific condition, so women who are totally breastfeeding, we could talk about what that means because there's a specific definition during that first six months and they haven't got their period back.

[00:35:00] Lisa Henderson-Jack: There's a 98%. Effectiveness. And I find that interesting because, duh, in a way, right? Because like, obviously. But, you know, when I'm working with, uh, my clients, like, we talk about this lactation amenorrhea method and we talk about the impact that breastfeeding has so that we can all understand it. But I feel like adding in the mucus and the understanding that the mucus comes first and learning how to check for that and learning how to identify when it's there, you know, that really, really helps.

[00:35:30] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so the effect of breastfeeding on ovulation, I think is really helpful for people to understand because when I said totally breastfeeding, Most women don't necessarily meet that definition. So if, if we were like, okay, we want to research this and I, let's just hypothetical. I'm trying to like be very careful how I word things.

[00:35:51] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But let's like hypothetically say, okay, I want to use breastfeeding as birth control, right? Like let's say that that's what I want to do. So if I wanted to do that in order to set myself up for success, I would have to plan to breastfeed like all the time on demand. And to really optimize and maximize the duration and frequency of suckling, because that is the specific thing that has the highest suppressive effect on ovulation.

[00:36:14] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so if you have to go to work, and you have to pump, and your baby starts sleeping through the night or eating solid foods, these are all situations that have the potential to reduce that frequency and duration. And so, as you can imagine. For the modern woman, even for who's breastfeeding, we can't be relying on breastfeeding solely because there's just so many opportunities to not meet that definition of quote, totally breastfeeding, so.

[00:36:42] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So much we could say about the breastfeeding piece. 

[00:36:44] Iris Josephina: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know this differentiation between the total breastfeeding and that pumping would not fall under that definition. So interesting. 

[00:36:55] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Yeah, because the pumping, although obviously you're still stimulating the breast, it wouldn't be the same as baby.

[00:37:02] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So there's all of these pieces of that puzzle and it doesn't and everybody is also different. So, as you know, some women, even if they're breastfeeding all the time, get their periods back within three months or four months. And other women breastfeed and maybe not even like as intensely, and they may get their period back at month eight.

[00:37:23] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So there's a lot of, and this is why I love the charting piece of it to add to that because it gives us additional information. Like when we can track for our cervical mucus in that postpartum stage, it gives us that heads up that we couldn't get if we were relying solely on temperature. 

[00:37:37] Iris Josephina: This is so helpful.

[00:37:39] Iris Josephina: Yeah, and I had one other question, and I've actually only spoken about this with a friend who also works with women. And I'm just so curious about your thoughts. So, I have read and heard experiences from people that their cervical fluid patterns are not the same as in the books. And I specifically spoke about this with my friend, who said, You know, I work a lot with people of color.

[00:38:04] Iris Josephina: And their cervical mucus patterns, when I see the charts, they're different than, for example, a white woman. And I found this so interesting, and I started thinking, like, is the method or the methods as we have developed them, are they maybe only based on white women? Have people of color been included in the, like, the development of these methods?

[00:38:30] Iris Josephina: And I'm just very curious about your thoughts and whether you've seen a wide variety of patterns. And I'm just very curious about this. 

[00:38:39] Lisa Henderson-Jack: That is such an interesting question. I have never got that question before. So, I mean, I am one practitioner in this, you know, conversation, and I do have a lot of experience.

[00:38:51] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I mean, I have worked with hundreds of clients, so I've seen a lot of charts. I've seen thousands of them at this point. And to be honest, I have never noticed a specific difference based on race, although I'm not a scientific study. So that would be really fascinating to see. When I think about, I've seen a lot of variation, though, in terms of mucus patterns.

[00:39:11] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I'd be curious as to what your friends saw, and I would also be curious as to how many, like how many clients choose working with, it would be more compelling if it was like, I worked with 10 people, it would be more compelling if it was like, I actually saw, you know, 2000 clients, like, I feel like it would be Yeah, I'd be interested in that.

[00:39:29] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So my comment on that would be that I have seen a lot of variation in menstrual in cervical mucus pattern specifically, that isn't related to race, but it's more related to certain Specific things. So I can share what I've seen to make a difference. One of the factors for many women is age. So the research says, so there's a really interesting researcher, he's now passed on, but he, his name is Eric Odeblad.

[00:39:56] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And he's like the father of cervical mucus, uh, information that led to the modern fertility awareness based methods. So it's based on his research that we had the Billings method and the Creighton method, and that kind of bleeds into all of our modern fertility awareness based methods. So it's really interesting actually, even to learn about the history of these methods.

[00:40:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But this man studied cervical mucus under a microscope for like decades. And so he's put out so much interesting information. And one of the things that he had observed just in all these years is that when we're talking about cervical fluid, the cervical fluid comes from our cervix. And so the cervix is the base of the uterus.

[00:40:34] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And in that, if we were to kind of look inside of the cervix, the opening, we would see a number of little folds. And in those folds are called our cervical cribs. And if we really want to go into the weeds, those cervical crypts, there's different types of crypts that make different types of mucus. So there's four main types of mucus.

[00:40:56] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I talk about this in the fifth vital sign. I go into like all this detail in chapter three. So if anyone's like super nerdy about this stuff, like feel free. But there's the type of mucus that we don't really see. That's what we would call G type. That is what forms the mucus plug. So when we're not in our fertile window, we literally have a plug.

[00:41:14] Lisa Henderson-Jack: in our cervix that prevents the sperm from being able to pass through. So that G type mucus, like I said, we don't typically see that. We experience dry days when we have that G type mucus. And G is a word for gestogenic, which means under the influence of progesterone. So it's when our progesterone is highest that we have this type of mucus.

[00:41:33] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then on the days that we observe mucus, we typically see the clear stretchy or the like the white lotiony type. And so there's several crypts that together, including the G, like make us see that type of mucus. So what Odeblad found in his research is that When we're younger, we tend to have more of these S and P and L crypts that provide more of that clear stretchy.

[00:41:58] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So often, like our best mucus days would be in our 20s, like that's typically when we would see more of it, we would see higher quantity and potentially higher quality of mucus as well. This is assuming that we are not healthy, not on hormonal contraceptives. And then as we get older, what happens is as we age, we have fewer of those crypts that make that type of mucus.

[00:42:20] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so we end up seeing a bit less. So I would be curious as to, is it the race? Like I would be breaking it down based on these things. I've certainly observed that as women get older, Not everybody is not the same, but it is common to see fewer days of mucus or less of it, less quantity. Another huge factor is birth control pill use.

[00:42:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So even before I would say, is there a difference between white women and black women, I would want to know. If the women that you are seeing, the black women that you happen to be seeing, maybe they didn't use the pill, right? Because there's potentially differences in terms of race, in terms of who's using what contraceptive, or why, or when they started, or that kind of thing.

[00:42:59] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And that would be a really interesting study as well. So birth control. So one of the scary stats, there's a few scary stats that I share in my book. And one of those scary stats is the impact of the pill on our cervical crypts. So the pill in Odeblad's work, he found that it kind of ages that cervix faster.

[00:43:17] Iris Josephina: Wow. 

[00:43:18] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So as I said, naturally, we tend to the number of those crypts that produce that kind of really fertile quality cervical fluid is lower naturally when we're older. But if we use the pill for 10 years, Then it speeds up that process. So many women come off the pill and it doesn't mean they're not making any, but many women come off the pill and they're seeing much less.

[00:43:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: One thing that's really interesting as well is that pregnancy, because we're exposed to such high levels of progesterone, estrogen, it's like a second puberty because it really changes our body. So for anyone who's been pregnant. You have new breasts at the end, they can lactate now. So there's a lot of things that happen, you know.

[00:43:57] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so one of the things is that the pregnancy hormones rejuvenate the cervical crypt. So I've had a number of clients who, you know, they use the pill, they came off, they had kind of scant mucus, they didn't see a lot. And they were still able to conceive in these examples that I'm giving you, because even if they have a little bit, it still helped them with timing.

[00:44:16] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then once they had their babies and their pregnant and their cycles came back, Then many of my clients have commented like, this is the first time I'm seeing this like egg white mucus, like I never saw before. And definitely not this much. So I've experienced that just so many, so many times. And so you can tell the point I'm making and I always.

[00:44:34] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Okay, I'm answering these questions like super long because there's so much information to share, but I just want to make that point, like that would be my comment on it, where if I was part of that conversation, I call myself the 50 questions lady, I would probably wonder if it wasn't necessarily race, but if it was other factors, and I could be wrong, it could be, I'm open to that too, but these are the factors that I have seen to make the biggest difference.

[00:44:58] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And also if somebody has had it. cervical dysplasia, abnormal cervical cells. If they've had a procedure that scrapes the cells or cauterizes or anything like that, that can reduce the instance of cervical mucus as well, because anything that damages the crypts can have a negative impact. So there's a lot of other factors that I would go to before I went to the race.

[00:45:20] Iris Josephina: I love how Our pregnancies can rejuvenate the cervical cribs. I didn't know that, and I'm very much looking forward to experiencing 

[00:45:29] Lisa Henderson-Jack: that. It's really interesting. I can't make promises, but I have seen it. I can think of many, many clients, and it's interesting that, again, that this was something that was found in the, in his research.

[00:45:41] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I know I'm referring to one researcher, but like I said, he researched the cervical crypts and the mucus. And it's really his papers that are the go to when you're trying to have an understanding in this area, because there's just a vast amount of information specifically from him. And I find it interesting that he studied, like there was enough information for him to study for all these years.

[00:46:01] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But I also find it interesting that he did make this connection and found this connection between the pill and the cervical crypts. And even in terms of the number of which types of crypts you have and how that affects how we experience our mucus. 

[00:46:16] Iris Josephina: Is it only the pill or is it every single form of birth control that contains a specific synthetic hormone that creates this effect on the crypts?

[00:46:26] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So, I think, my comment on that would be, I do think that it's very possible that any type of hormonal method has the effect. When you look at the actual research, Much of it is done on the combined oral contraceptive pills specifically. So one thing though, that the combined options, so like the pill, the patch, the ring, those tend to be like a combined synthetic estrogen, synthetic progesterone combo.

[00:46:55] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And one of the reasons why it has that effect is because one of the main modes of action is actually to prevent the cervix from making fertile quality mucus. So, Technically, when you're on the pill, one of the reasons that you can't get pregnant is because the cervix is always blocked with the mucus plug.

[00:47:13] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So with years of that, and you're never making the kind of peak quality fertile type cervical mucus, then it stands to reason, like that's what he found in his research, that you just end up with fewer of those crypts that make the mucus. They're just not being used, or I'm not sure. He didn't necessarily say why.

[00:47:30] Lisa Henderson-Jack: He just saw that that's what happened. 

[00:47:32] Iris Josephina: Yeah, and maybe some of the more modern, like, forms of birth control that we know now didn't exist when he was doing his research. 

[00:47:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Well, interestingly, the, the, like, when we, when you say, like, modern birth control methods, We haven't really iterated much since the first one.

[00:47:53] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So what I mean by that is, and like someone in the drug industry is going to be like offended or something. But like, what I mean, what I mean by that is that if you think about it, the first pill came on the market in 1960. It was called. And it was a combination of synthetic estrogens and progestins. So the pills that we have today, I mean, they talk about the first generation, second generation, but they're still like the same.

[00:48:22] Lisa Henderson-Jack: They just have different dosages. So in order to patent a drug, so if I, if I wanted to make a drug and patent it. I can't patent like our natural 

[00:48:30] Iris Josephina: estrogens. 

[00:48:31] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So if I want to patent it, it means I made it and I put my name on it and then I can trademark it or whatever. And so no one else, and that's how I make money, right?

[00:48:40] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Like in this hypothetical example. So even in terms of the newer versions that they're making, is the motivation. to create a drug that is better suited for women? Or is the motivation that my patent ran out on this specific formulation? And so I can't be the only one who makes it now. So now I need to create another synthetic version.

[00:49:04] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And what that means is we have our natural estrogen, if we were to look at the molecular structure and what is in these contraceptives is similar, but not the same. And that's why they have very different effects to our natural hormones. So I would argue that there's not a lot of innovation when it comes to the pill because they're not really looking to make it better for women.

[00:49:25] Lisa Henderson-Jack: If you look at the side effect profile, we have literally 60 years of data to show that women still have side effects. And they're not favorable, like 50 percent of women come off of the pill within the first year of using it. And those stats are even higher for things like the shot, which are not, like even have a worse side effect profile, you know?

[00:49:41] Iris Josephina: Yeah. 

[00:49:42] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so the drug manufacturers are making kind of iterations, but I would argue that they're doing that to make sure they always are on top of that patent. 

[00:49:52] Iris Josephina: Yeah. 

[00:49:53] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And then as soon as the patent wears off. Then they, generic versions can be made and then they stop making money. So then they have to make another one.

[00:50:01] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So I don't believe that modern pills are much better than what they were. And I would also say that I don't believe that the iterations are for our health benefits or anything like that. I think that it's for the company to make money. 

[00:50:14] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I completely agree with that. But what I was trying to say is that he maybe, this researcher maybe didn't look at the ring because when he was researching it, this was not brought on the market, but the ingredients are basically the same.

[00:50:28] Iris Josephina: So we can maybe expect the same consequences on the cervical cribs specifically. 

[00:50:34] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So, I mean, I think that it's safe. So just based on my like the combination of like the research and also my experience just working with clients, I think that's a great point. Obviously, it would be amazing if we did have the research for all of the specific methods for the implant and like for the shot and for all the different options, the IUD, the hormonal releasing IUD.

[00:50:57] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But I do think that it is, um, something that we can kind of make an inference on. I think that it is. 

[00:51:02] Iris Josephina: Yeah. The 

[00:51:02] Lisa Henderson-Jack: fact that the research even exists on the kind of combined pill is, is kind of like fascinating. And I'm sure that there are women who are listening who are a bit shocked to discover that they know that it has this negative impact on our ability to produce fertile quality cervical mucus.

[00:51:18] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And that potentially could have an impact on fertility. I mean, one thing I found is that it's not permanent and. I've seen many women come off the pill. Many of them have limited mucus for a period of time. I've seen a couple clients who have several cycles without any mucus until they start to see it, you know, cycle five or whatever.

[00:51:38] Lisa Henderson-Jack: But I've never seen it to be permanent. I've never seen it to have to mean that you can't conceive even if the mucus isn't great because it's mucus is one of the factors of fertility. It's not the only factor, but yeah, it's definitely interesting to think about. And these are things that we should be made aware of so that when we're deciding which method of birth control to use, we can truly make an informed choice.

[00:52:00] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I totally agree. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and your knowledge. You're like a walking encyclopedia. I love it when people are like that. 

[00:52:12] Lisa Henderson-Jack: I've been reading about this stuff for so long. So there's lots of, there's, I have a lot to say about it for sure. You're like, Oh, there's this topic.

[00:52:20] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Let me open up all 

[00:52:21] Iris Josephina: my drawers.

[00:52:24] Iris Josephina: I love that. I love that about people. So please don't change that. I love it. So to close off, do you have any wisdom you would like people to know today? Maybe for when they're just getting started or they don't know how to get started? 

[00:52:39] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Yeah. I mean, the first thing I'll say is that you're learning at a great time.

[00:52:44] Lisa Henderson-Jack: You won't face the same challenges that I did, given that I discovered this when there was no time. internet stuff about it. Really, there was very little. So the great thing is that there's lots of resources available for you. So, of course, I've shared my books. The Fifth Vital Sign is a great place to start.

[00:53:01] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Also the same book that I first discovered, Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Waschler is amazing and many women are still finding fertility awareness through, it's still a bestseller. 

[00:53:10] Iris Josephina: Love that. 

[00:53:11] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I believe she's working on her 25th anniversary edition. 

[00:53:14] Iris Josephina: Oh wow. 

[00:53:15] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Right now. So shout out to Tony. But yeah, so I would say if you're getting started, certainly grab one of those resources.

[00:53:24] Lisa Henderson-Jack: One of the easiest ways to start is just to start tracking your periods, start learning about your cervical fluid, like we talked about, and understand what it means in terms of your cycle, that those are your days of fertility. If you're trying to conceive, have sex when you see fertile quality cervical mucus, like when you see the clear stretchy stuff, I don't care if it's on day 19 or day 6, just have sex when you see it, don't worry about the day of the cycle, if that's like the one takeaway for anyone who's trying to conceive, like, trust, like, well, don't trust me, like, trust, but verify, but like, there's lots of research to support that recommendation, but definitely, like, make the mucus your primary sign of fertility that you're timing sex based on.

[00:54:02] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And if you're wanting to use this method for birth control, if you're feeling really inspired and you have had a negative experience on birth control, I would recommend that you choose a specific method and that you consider working with an instructor, because I want women to be successful. This is a, a method that requires you to know what you're doing.

[00:54:20] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And so it is really helpful, a huge confidence boost when you can work with someone who has trained in a specific method who can really guide you. So I would highly recommend that for someone who is wanting to seriously use this as a primary birth control method. And the last thing I'll say is you can do it.

[00:54:36] Lisa Henderson-Jack: It is possible. It's not the rhythm method. It's not like, as people say, it's not your grandma's or the method. It's a modern fertility awareness based method. It's based on science. There's so much data and research. So if you are doubting that or unsure, just keep looking. Like I said, I shared some good resources to start with.

[00:54:54] Lisa Henderson-Jack: And I'll just share about my recent book, Real Food for Fertility. So, uh, Lily and I wrote that book for women, obviously, who are trying to conceive, but also for anybody who is struggling with menstrual cycle irregularities, challenges, hormonal imbalances, because ultimately we argue that the menstrual, a healthy menstrual cycle really is where it all starts.

[00:55:17] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Like the bottom line is we have lots of resources for you. 

[00:55:20] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I love that latest book. I just devoured it when it came out. Like first day when it came out in Europe, I got it and I just devoured it. It's so good. Yeah, thank you for writing that and for collaborating. Oh, thank you so much. With Lily to write it.

[00:55:34] Iris Josephina: Yeah, it's really good. Thank you. And if people want to know more about your work and where they can find you on socials, what is the best way, best place? 

[00:55:45] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Well, thank you for that. Um, so you can find me at fertility Friday on Instagram. That's my biggest platform. That's where I hang out a lot. And if you like podcasts, you can find me.

[00:55:54] Lisa Henderson-Jack: If you just search fertility Friday in your favorite podcast player, we are in our 10th year of podcasting, which is just completely crazy. And we have over 500 episodes, so we've definitely been. doing our thing. And lately I have been working with women's health professionals to really empower them to bring this information to their clients.

[00:56:14] Lisa Henderson-Jack: So if you're listening and you fall into that category, I made a great resource that you can grab for free, how to interpret virtually any chart your client throws at you. So you can find that at fertilityfriday. com slash chart. 

[00:56:27] Iris Josephina: Thank you. I'm going to put all of that in the show notes so people easily can find you.

[00:56:33] Iris Josephina: And I want to thank you for your time and your. dedication and your really devotion to this practice. Like, it's so beautiful to see and I'm so glad that you're doing the work that you're doing for so long and that women, so many women can be supported by you. Yeah. 

[00:56:51] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Oh, well, thank you so much for having me.

[00:56:53] Lisa Henderson-Jack: This is a fun, you asked so many interesting and different questions. So thank you for that. 

[00:56:57] Iris Josephina: You're welcome. I love asking questions just like you, and I always want to know, why is this? Why is that? How does this work? 

[00:57:03] Lisa Henderson-Jack: Yeah. I don't know. I think that when you have that kind of curiosity and tenacity, it really serves you.

[00:57:09] Iris Josephina: It really does. Yeah. Thank you so much again.

[00:57:17] Iris Josephina: Okay, this wraps up today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Want to know more about me? The best way to reach me is via at CycleSeeds on Instagram. And if you heard something today and you think, Oh my God, wow, I learned something new. Feel free to share the podcast on your social media and tag me or leave a review or rating.

[00:57:37] Iris Josephina: In this way, you help me reach more people like you. Thank you so much.